Show and Tell?

LASur5r · September 17, 2000, 05:55 PM

In SoCal, we have had incidences where the BG's got the drop on everybody, then when they discovered an LEO, killed 'em.

Let's say that you are in an office building, the BG's come in and "surround you", either they have superior numbers and firepower or they totally surprised you. In either case, they have the drop on you.
The BG's herd you all into one office space. They lock the door after disconnecting all the phones, this office is landlocked(no windows or doors to outside) except where the BG's left a guard.
You hear through the door, that the BG's are coming back after they rob the offices in the building and they are arguing whether or not they are going to check everyone for weapons...then they're going to tie everyone up and have a little fun with some of the hostages...Oh joy!

You're carrying concealed, do you try to organize resistance and show and tell the other hostages ? or just figure that you're on your own and you'll figure when you might have to do an escape?

Art Eatman · September 19, 2000, 07:48 AM

In your scenario, given the stipulated probability of death if you do nothing: I'd get everybody out from a probable line of fire. As soon as I was sure a Bad Guy was in front of the door, I'd shoot through it.

With the door still closed, they can't aim. If you're off to the side, they can't hit. With one BG down--or more--the high odds are that they will leave. They're not crazed hashsassins; they're opportunists preying on perceived weakness...

FWIW, Art

LASur5r · September 20, 2000, 07:27 PM

Art Eatman,
Good tactics..appreciate your suggestions.
Thank you for the post.

Shoot straight and keep your powder dry.

M1911 · September 21, 2000, 07:31 AM

Even if you don't shoot through the door, the door is a funnel. They'll have to come through it. Get everyone off to the sides. If possible, have one of the other hostages disable the light inside the room.

Take what cover you can for yourself also. Then when they come back to open the door, take aim about chest height. When they open the door, shoot the first perp with two rounds to the chest. If you've been able to disable the light in the room, they'll have a heck of a hard time seeing you, but you'll see them just fine.

M1911

mk86fcc · September 21, 2000, 10:12 AM

Don't forget to move after the first two rounds... (Based on a derivative of one of Murphy's Laws of Combat - i.e., "Tracers work both ways." So does muzzle flash.)

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed

[This message has been edited by mk86fcc (edited September 21, 2000).]

LASur5r · September 22, 2000, 06:36 PM

1911,
Good reminder about the door being a funnel.
One of my co-workers' daughters just started in a Catholic high school...she was confronted by the local girl's bully and her cohorts.
They were trying a little extortion for "protection" and she refused.
They directed her to go to the bathroom where they were going to pound her good. They warned her that if she ran, they would hunt her down and make the rest of her life in high school a "living h**#!"
She remembered the "the door as a funnel concept" and let the leader into the restroom first. She kicked the door close into the girl behind her and grabbed the leader by the hair, slammed her head against the counter, dropped her on the floor and kicked her unconscious.
My friend was called to meet his daughter in the principal's office. The daughter was threatened with suspension the next thime this happened, my friend was warned, and the bully transferred schools.
My friend's daughter now has a small group of friends who were being bullied at the time and they admire her for standing up to the bully.

A girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do.

Dave D · September 22, 2000, 09:03 PM

Right on! Thats the girl I want covering my back.

LiquidTension · September 22, 2000, 10:24 PM

That's typical school system BS about threatening her for defending herself. About the original question, I definitely would NOT tell the other people in the room that I was carrying unless I knew all of them and was sure they wouldn't tip the BGs off. More than likely some ignorant idiot would tell the BGs you had a gun thinking that 1) guns are bad and would only get everyone killed or 2) that they could get on the BGs good side by telling them about the weapon. NEVER forget about the inherent stupidity of most people, especially anti-gunners!

chadintex · September 24, 2000, 08:43 AM

Liquid Tension has a good point. Luckily, everyone on my staff is pro-gun. We're Security Officers, we know that in a sitution like this, we get taken out first. You have to fight back. What is worse, dying while fighting, or living with the fact that your cowardice allowed others to be raped and killed?

Once you commit to fight, fight; use your head and exploit every weakness, use speed, aggression, and violence. Get mad, hurt them bad and leave.

Allen_Raiford · September 26, 2000, 09:12 AM

Don't count on any help. Most people are sheep.

LASur5r · September 26, 2000, 10:50 AM

Two real incidences that I know of..
One, the officer was plain clothes, but he was trying to hit on the tellers at that bank so that they knew that he was a LEO.
So when the BG's came in, and they had everyone on the deck...one of the tellers turned to the LEO and whispered loud enough for the BG's to hear, "Why don't you do something about this? You have a gun."
He was severely pistol whipped. Talks a little slow now because of the head trauma.

One of my LEO friends was off duty and he used to drop by this gunshop to shoot the breeze. There was a wannabe who would attach himself to any LEO who could put up with him...he'd buy food, knives, even guns...once gave away 15 Seecamps to the LEO's who came into the shop...the wannabe is a salesman with a lot of time on his hands.
Anyway, one day the WB(wannabe) goes out on a doughnut and coffee run with an off duty LEO, they sit down and two BG's walk in, one covers the patrons, the other pays his attention to the cashier.
WB, scares the S**t out of the lEO, by tugging on his sleeve and shows his handgun under the table. WB mouthes "Now?!" LEO says, "No! Put it away!"
The BG at the cashier, slaps her...WB almost jumps out of his seat, LEO grabs him and pulls him back down. WB wants to have a shootout. LEO feels situation is still not out of hand and it doesn't call for a shootout.
BG's leave with cash. WB is totally frustrated and questions bravery of LEO. LEO gives full description of BG's and the license plate of the car that they drove away in. Guys are caught two days later without incident.

I know it's hard but sometimes you have to be patient...I believe timing is every thing. Along with luck.

September 17, 2000, 05:55 PM	#1
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	In SoCal, we have had incidences where the BG's got the drop on everybody, then when they discovered an LEO, killed 'em. Let's say that you are in an office building, the BG's come in and "surround you", either they have superior numbers and firepower or they totally surprised you. In either case, they have the drop on you. The BG's herd you all into one office space. They lock the door after disconnecting all the phones, this office is landlocked(no windows or doors to outside) except where the BG's left a guard. You hear through the door, that the BG's are coming back after they rob the offices in the building and they are arguing whether or not they are going to check everyone for weapons...then they're going to tie everyone up and have a little fun with some of the hostages...Oh joy! You're carrying concealed, do you try to organize resistance and show and tell the other hostages ? or just figure that you're on your own and you'll figure when you might have to do an escape?

September 19, 2000, 07:48 AM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	In your scenario, given the stipulated probability of death if you do nothing: I'd get everybody out from a probable line of fire. As soon as I was sure a Bad Guy was in front of the door, I'd shoot through it. With the door still closed, they can't aim. If you're off to the side, they can't hit. With one BG down--or more--the high odds are that they will leave. They're not crazed hashsassins; they're opportunists preying on perceived weakness... FWIW, Art

September 20, 2000, 07:27 PM	#3
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Art Eatman, Good tactics..appreciate your suggestions. Thank you for the post. Shoot straight and keep your powder dry.

September 21, 2000, 07:31 AM	#4
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	Even if you don't shoot through the door, the door is a funnel. They'll have to come through it. Get everyone off to the sides. If possible, have one of the other hostages disable the light inside the room. Take what cover you can for yourself also. Then when they come back to open the door, take aim about chest height. When they open the door, shoot the first perp with two rounds to the chest. If you've been able to disable the light in the room, they'll have a heck of a hard time seeing you, but you'll see them just fine. M1911

September 21, 2000, 10:12 AM	#5
mk86fcc Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 1999 Location: NE Florida Posts: 629	Don't forget to move after the first two rounds... (Based on a derivative of one of Murphy's Laws of Combat - i.e., "Tracers work both ways." So does muzzle flash.) ------------------ "...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36 "An armed society is a polite society." Robert Heinlein "Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!" Fred Reed [This message has been edited by mk86fcc (edited September 21, 2000).]

September 22, 2000, 06:36 PM	#6
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	1911, Good reminder about the door being a funnel. One of my co-workers' daughters just started in a Catholic high school...she was confronted by the local girl's bully and her cohorts. They were trying a little extortion for "protection" and she refused. They directed her to go to the bathroom where they were going to pound her good. They warned her that if she ran, they would hunt her down and make the rest of her life in high school a "living h**#!" She remembered the "the door as a funnel concept" and let the leader into the restroom first. She kicked the door close into the girl behind her and grabbed the leader by the hair, slammed her head against the counter, dropped her on the floor and kicked her unconscious. My friend was called to meet his daughter in the principal's office. The daughter was threatened with suspension the next thime this happened, my friend was warned, and the bully transferred schools. My friend's daughter now has a small group of friends who were being bullied at the time and they admire her for standing up to the bully. A girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do.

September 22, 2000, 09:03 PM	#7
Dave D Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2000 Location: Northern California Posts: 126	Right on! Thats the girl I want covering my back.

September 22, 2000, 10:24 PM	#8
LiquidTension Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2000 Location: SC Posts: 105	That's typical school system BS about threatening her for defending herself. About the original question, I definitely would NOT tell the other people in the room that I was carrying unless I knew all of them and was sure they wouldn't tip the BGs off. More than likely some ignorant idiot would tell the BGs you had a gun thinking that 1) guns are bad and would only get everyone killed or 2) that they could get on the BGs good side by telling them about the weapon. NEVER forget about the inherent stupidity of most people, especially anti-gunners!

September 24, 2000, 08:43 AM	#9
chadintex Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1999 Location: SE OK Posts: 398	Liquid Tension has a good point. Luckily, everyone on my staff is pro-gun. We're Security Officers, we know that in a sitution like this, we get taken out first. You have to fight back. What is worse, dying while fighting, or living with the fact that your cowardice allowed others to be raped and killed? Once you commit to fight, fight; use your head and exploit every weakness, use speed, aggression, and violence. Get mad, hurt them bad and leave.

September 26, 2000, 09:12 AM	#10
Allen_Raiford Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 304	Don't count on any help. Most people are sheep.

September 26, 2000, 10:50 AM	#11
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Two real incidences that I know of.. One, the officer was plain clothes, but he was trying to hit on the tellers at that bank so that they knew that he was a LEO. So when the BG's came in, and they had everyone on the deck...one of the tellers turned to the LEO and whispered loud enough for the BG's to hear, "Why don't you do something about this? You have a gun." He was severely pistol whipped. Talks a little slow now because of the head trauma. One of my LEO friends was off duty and he used to drop by this gunshop to shoot the breeze. There was a wannabe who would attach himself to any LEO who could put up with him...he'd buy food, knives, even guns...once gave away 15 Seecamps to the LEO's who came into the shop...the wannabe is a salesman with a lot of time on his hands. Anyway, one day the WB(wannabe) goes out on a doughnut and coffee run with an off duty LEO, they sit down and two BG's walk in, one covers the patrons, the other pays his attention to the cashier. WB, scares the S**t out of the lEO, by tugging on his sleeve and shows his handgun under the table. WB mouthes "Now?!" LEO says, "No! Put it away!" The BG at the cashier, slaps her...WB almost jumps out of his seat, LEO grabs him and pulls him back down. WB wants to have a shootout. LEO feels situation is still not out of hand and it doesn't call for a shootout. BG's leave with cash. WB is totally frustrated and questions bravery of LEO. LEO gives full description of BG's and the license plate of the car that they drove away in. Guys are caught two days later without incident. I know it's hard but sometimes you have to be patient...I believe timing is every thing. Along with luck.