Florida police asking gunshops for info

[Shane Tuttle]

Originally Posted by Sarge

...and I'll say this one more time... only toward the purpose of solving a specific crime.

I agree with Sarge. If I ran a gunshop and there's a specific crime they're investigating, I would open up my books to the specific records they seek. There's a balance between generating rapport with LE, assisting the pursuit of justice, and maintaining trust from your customers.

[TLeo]

If the police are asking about a specific weapon then you can be prety sure they have evidence to lead them to believe that is what was used. As to that being kept quiet, they don't release every bit of info to the public about crimes. Some is held back that only the criminal or others involved would know about.
The attitude and paranoia on here of some people is really amazing...I guarantee if the victims were one of your relatives you would want the police asking this and every other question they can come up with to solve the murders. They are asking for voluntary, specific info limited to certain dates and a certain firearm and specific crime and there is nothing unreasonable about this at all.

[vranasaurus]

Every firearm transferred in the US is supposed to be reported to the FBI, both long guns and hand guns. Some states do not cooperate, in part or at all, but in those states that do not cooperate, the FFL is required to fill out the form.

And yes, they do not have make, model or serial number in the NICS database, but they do know the name and address and type of gun (long gun or handgun) of every registered firearm transfer.

Federal law prohibits the maintenance of any registry of firearms at the federal level. There is no law requiring that sales be reported to the FBI.

The NICS must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. They don't keep a list of names and addresses of purchasers with the types of guns purchased.

[Mike Irwin]

Asking local gunshops for sales information on a specific type of firearm is how Virginia police solved the killings of several CIA employees in the early 1990s.

[Hkmp5sd]

How exactly, does having a list of all people in central Florida that purchased a .40 Sigma between 2004-05 from a licensed dealer help track down a serial killer?

Unless they have a suspect and are trying to tie him to having purchased a .40 Sigma, I see no benefit. Or do they plan on knocking on every door and asking for a voluntary ballistic sample from each firearm like they did back when the DC Sniper was running around?

[TMNT]

The saying "Once they get their foot in the door" comes to mind.

[Double Naught Spy]

This brings up a whole lot of questions, including the legality of the requests. The tone of the report suggested that they are seeking voluntary cooperation, not demanding records.

I don't see where this brings up any question about the legality of such requests. The police can ask anything they want given that the gunshop owners are not under arrest and requesting a lawyer be present.

The saying "Once they get their foot in the door" comes to mind.

Yeah, they could ask other questions!

Wait, isn't that part of the whole investigatory process, asking questions?

[brickeyee]

Regular business records do not have any special protection, and since the 4473 is a 'regular business record' for a gun dealer, they can look at them at will.

Do you really think an FFL is going to hire attorneys and fight about it on your behalf?

Banks will cough up your data almost for the asking.
The same with the phone company. The new digital switches keep a record of EVERY CALL MADE. Both originating and answering numbers, and the time of day and duration. The only thing they cannot keep is a recording of the call itself.

[RETG]

The attitude and paranoia on here of some people is really amazing...

Not really. One of the reasons I read these threads. I love seeing how paranoid most of the people are.

By the way, I totally agree with the rest of your thread. If LE can find a serial killer by obtaining this information, good for them.

[Musketeer]

This is a specific request pertaining to a single criminal. I think some are getting a little paranoid here. Would some of you be as upset if they were asking local ATV dealers who they has sold a specific make of make of dirt bike to in 2004-2005 because it was that make was identified in a murder at that time?

[TMNT]

"Quote:
The saying "Once they get their foot in the door" comes to mind.

Yeah, they could ask other questions!

Wait, isn't that part of the whole investigatory process, asking questions?"


I was referring to the government (or anyone for that matter), along down the line. Look at the posting of peoples name and addresses in the paper who hold CCW's. I guess you don't really know what I meant. No need to be a wise a$% about it, if you misunderstood. Maybe I should have followed up, elaborated on the saying....

This could open a whole new way of gun control and ban. Lets just say a new stricter gun ban is instituted. The government now wants to know who purchased selected firearms that THEY DEEM "evil", "black rifles", "assault", "military looking", "deadly" (or whatever term they label them) between certain picked years to suit them. Now they want all these firearms to be given up voluntarily, if not they will go to your house and remove them for you ...and possibly arrest or fine you.

That's what I meant about "Once they get their foot in the door" pertaining to this topic.

I have to agree with brickeyee, I don't think there is any protection on business transactions dealing with firearms. So it is pretty much fair game for the government and cops.

This topic is a tough one and imo no one can really sit on one side or the other. Is there a middle? I don't know.
One...ya it may be a good thing to find a killer. By finding which FFL sold the firearm to the killer or the person the firearm was stolen from?
Two...ya it may be good for the gov to use it towards getting our firearms.
Both sound like potential possibilities.

[44 AMP]

Perhaps, this is just a rather elaborate fishing expedition?

After all, assume for a moment, full cooperation and they get a list of say 2,000 people (just for a number), what good would that really do them in the investigation? They don't have a suspect (if they did, they would be asking about purchases made by that individual), so they would have to comb through the list, looking for matches to a "profile" of the killer.

Then they would have to work through all the potential matches to find the "closest" match, and then, work from there to establish evidence, beyond the mere purchase of a specific model gun during a specific time frame, linking the suspect(s?) to the crimes. All this assumes the person they are looking for bought the gun through a FL dealer. If they didn't, its nothing but a waste of time and money.

Perhaps, they are hoping the publicity involved in asking gunshops about the specific gun and time frame will shake loose some information from some other source? Such as "Buck the fisherman" remembers he sold his Sigma .40 to a guy through a want ad during those years, and now decided to tell the cops about it, incase it might turn out to be of interest to them? Or Ginny the waitress remembers an ex boyfriend who had one.....etc.

[Sarge]

The development and solidification of suspects involves a process I like to call 'triangulation' for lack of a better term. It is influenced by any number of factors and is as useful for the exoneration of the innocent as it is in identifying the guilty. It is not something that can be 'guessed at'. The people working this case may have 20 potential suspects, 3 living in the general area of the crime and 12 others known to frequent it. 4 of those may have proclivities for the particular type of victim. Finding that one or two of them possessed a gun of the type used in the crime, simply expedites that process.

While we don't know how the 'Sigma' factor came into play but I'll take a SWAG at it. Good crime labs keep standards of fired casings and bullets from the myriad of guns and ammunition they test. In addition to unique identifiers, those standards also display general characteristics consistent with they type of firearm they were fired from. Fired casings and recovered slugs will display those general characteristics. When a potential suspect gun(s) of that type is located, more lab work will follow in the quest for unique identifiers.

I know some of you don't like or trust the police. I can dig it. I know some of you have acquired those feelings from contacts with some of our less than wonderful examples. Sorry about that. I can assure you however that we have neither the time nor inclination to sift through bales 4473's, fishing for somebody to screw with.

I also realize that I may not convince you of this. I can't help that. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go change the oil in my black helicopter and take some windex to them x-ray glasses I can see through walls with. It was about time for my midnight donut, anyway

PS- Just caught your post, 44AMP. Good point. The 'shaking loose of information' is a wonderful thing and could well be a factor in solving this crime.

[Glenn Dee]

Hello Fella's


I believe this to be an investigation of the "DAYTONA SERIAL KILLER" I remember when they released the profile. I fit it perfectly...lol. This also reminded me of a little investigation in NY. The "SON OF SAM" also focused on a manufacture, and caliber of a firearm. In that case it was a Charter Arms Bulldog .44spl. The assigned detectives did review gun registrations within the city, and every registered bulldog 44 was test fired for comparison. In that aspect of the investigation eventually branched out to the counties, state, and reagion.

A forensic examination can determine the manufacture of a firearm used in a crime ballistically. This isnt new technology. Handguns, rifles, and shotguns can be identified without a whole lot of trouble.

If the crimes began in lets say 2004, it would make no sense to look for a gun sold after that date. How far they look behind that date would probably be an educated guess based on profile information.

IMO this isnt some plot to gather information on gun owners. It's just good, reasonable detective work. I'd assist the police i finding this fiend, and bring him to Justice.

[Double Naught Spy]

No need to be a wise a$% about it, if you misunderstood. Maybe I should have followed up, elaborated on the saying....

You didn't elaborate and so your vaguely referenced statement sounded overly paranoid. Your explanation certainly follows in this vein, though it is in a different direction than I expected. You seemed to be intimating 4th amendment issues with your very vague response and it turns out to be 2nd amendment.

Your explanation comes off as sounding overly paranoid because you go from the police asking for voluntary responses on gun information to saying to could lead to a new form of gun control with absolutely no realistic explanation of how this would occur. Your emotionally charged description of events isn't anything that doesn't already exist and hasn't already gone on in the past.

Perhaps, this is just a rather elaborate fishing expedition?

Absolutely. Elaborate fishing isn't illegal in anyway. As noted previously, it can all be part of a triangulation process. They have one corner of the "triangle" so far, or they think they do. They probably have a lot of other information that may or may not fit anything, but they won't know until finding patterns, sequences, commonalities that might lead to additional information (that they may or may not already have). Connecting the dots is hardest if you don't have all the dots. Even if you do, you still have to figure out which ones to connect, not connect, and in what order.

[animal]

Another likely idea is a high profile stunt to appear that they’re "doing something" about a cold case … not really interested in making cops look good in the public eye just for the sake of it … kinda makes me yawn a bit.
To get really politically incorrect here, crime on criminals tends to make me yawn a bit too.
On the flip side, I don’t have to worry about this one since I wouldn’t be selling or buying a S&W anyway … and anyone buying a S&W after 2000 shouldn’t expect, and doesn’t deserve, privacy here.

Well, you guys would call me paranoid, but I wouldn’t comply unless the cops were willing to explain a little more about why they wanted the info.
If they want to shorten a list of suspects to concentrate on, it sounds legit to me … but why are they asking for old addresses and phone numbers if that’s the case ? Sounds like they could be trying to build a bigger net rather than sort through a list of suspects in a picking box. That’s where I get a little edgy. The prospect of helping them to harass a guy whose only "crime" was buying a particular make of pistol in a certain time frame just doesn’t sit well…. especially after having been harassed, insulted, and pressured (attempted pressure, anyway) by the cops because I fit a profile in the mind of couple of lazy, pea brained, vindictive children with a little power… more than once. "Us vs. them" attitude ? …. Somewhat, but "they" started it.

I used to naively give the cops any support and information I could. Because of a couple of bad ones, and a large number of mostly-good ones that were more than willing to back up the scum in their midst, that is no longer the case. Now, all cops (except for a few that I know well, and that have become good friends) have to convince me that their requests are legitimate, or expect no help from me. This really torques the cookies of some of them (yawn) and downright ticks ‘em off when you say "If X is the case, I have information for you, but if you are not willing to say X is the case, then I have no information of value to you." followed up by … "I have given you the condition where my knowledge would be germane to your investigation, but I am not satisfied that your motive in gathering that information is legitimate investigation. If your motive is legitimate, you should have no difficulty in getting a subpoena based on the condition I provided, and I will happily comply with any court order, or you demonstrating a need to know." The bored, scripted-sounded way of saying it ticks ‘em off too.
What’s really funny is when one of the cop friends calls up and asks "What’s the deal between you and Detective Goob over the "whatever case", and you lay it all out for him with all the details. Cop friend then goes back to Det. Goob and either tells him what you had to say and that you’d be happy to testify in court, or to drop it because the information is none of his business.

It’s all about trust as far as I’m concerned, and while some cops whine that I shouldn’t judge the department’s trustworthiness by the actions of a couple of bad apples … I reply that I don’t. I judged the bad apples by their actions, just as I judged my cop friends as trustworthy. I judged the department by the overwhelming number of cops backing up, or remaining silent about the bad ones … just because they were cops.

Political grandstanding on the question of gun rights (and rights in general) by police chiefs representing their departments combined with the general unwillingness of departments weighing in on the other side of the issue kinda calls into the question of trustworthiness of police depts. in questions like this one, imo. The few "rank and file" cops that speak up on the pro-rights side of the issue might be considered to be like the "cop friends", but they don’t (and can’t) represent the departments because of their position and either lack of numbers or unwillingness to speak up in numbers.

Well, I guess I probably just alienated a bunch of cops (yawn), but I figure there wasn’t much point in being friendly with the ones that would be alienated by what I had to say anyway…

[Don P]

Many good view points in previous posts and good reasons for the requests BUT I still say no. As in my case about selling a gun and it being used in a robbery and being found through police work. Who is to say the gun was purchased through a FFL dealer? If its a private sale and no bill of sale, dead end or bill of sale and sold and re-sold and re-sold with no bill of sale dead end again.
It seems strange that almost some 4 years after the last victim was found that NOW we need to know about a certain make/ type pistol. With todays technology did it really take all this time to figure out the the weapon used?
Lets go to this step. They were also asking for DNA samples from people stopped and arrested for non-related cases that DNA would generally NOT be taken and would be of no use in there crime to help solve the serial killings.
Would YOU be willing to give you DNA for say, a simple shop lifting charge? They stated they would not keep the DNA data if it was NOT a match, but can we really trust them to destroy it? maybe, maybe not.

[Don P]

It's just good, reasonable detective work. I'd assist the police i finding this fiend, and bring him to Justice.

As I stated earlier, why such a seemingly long period between the murders and now looking for a specific weapon?

[Don P]

This is a specific request pertaining to a single criminal. I think some are getting a little paranoid here. Would some of you be as upset if they were asking local ATV dealers who they has sold a specific make of make of dirt bike to in 2004-2005 because it was that make was identified in a murder at that time?

Apples and oranges when comparing vehicles and firearms with regards to records.

How do you know there is a ( single criminal )? Assuming? It has taken them 4+ years to let the public know that they are looking for a particular weapon.
I believe there is more to this than the DBPD is letting on to.

[BillCA]

Originally Posted by Don_P

It seems strange that almost some 4 years after the last victim was found that NOW we need to know about a certain make/ type pistol. With todays technology did it really take all this time to figure out the the weapon used?

Perhaps not. It may be at the time the detectives assigned to the case were actively pursuing leads and developing suspects when they hit the proverbial brick wall. The case goes cold as they work on newer ones. Later detectives review the case and note some other evidence and can "see" a plan form, including finding purchasers of a .40 Sigma.

It may be that part of the evidence they have are some hair strands that are believed to be the killer's. Suppose for the moment that they are natural blonde hairs from a male. There's am 80% chance he's caucasian with some possibility he's from S.America (e.g. Argentina once had a sizeable Germanic population). If any sales records are found and the person's DMV info indicates that he's blonde, he may be worth checking out. But not Mr. Mario Bonacelli who has black hair. Fiber evidence from clothing worn might also play a part here too, especially if he favors a certain brand of shirt or pants with unique fibers. Or the fibers may be from a common car -- a Honda Civic -- and they may cross reference blonde Civic owners with .40 Sigmas.

[jgcoastie]

I think there's a much better way to go about it.

Like calling the BATFE and going through proper channels. Seems like local PD shouldn't be asking for bound books... It would look a lot better if the request came from BATFE vs. local PD.

[Musketeer]

I see no reason for the local PD to gunk up the works with the Feds (ATF) unless they have to.

[Conn. Trooper]

Gents, cops don't want sales records just for the heck of it. I know that where I work we wouldn't have the room to keep them unless we tossed something else out of the building and into the yard. None of the agencies near me have the room to store the records even if they wanted to. Not to mention we would have to comb through the however many hundreds/thousands of sales just to find out, wait for it.... people own guns. Not exactly news to any of us in LE. And so what? People buy and sell guns every day and cops don't care. Unless it was a gun used to murder three people. Then they care.

If a small amount of cooperation could solve the murder of your loved one, would you want cooperation? Or a gun shop owner concerned about black helicopters and conspiracies?

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, you guys would call me paranoid, but I wouldn’t comply unless the cops were willing to explain a little more about why they wanted the info.

Well, the request for information is asking for voluntary responses. You could choose to comply or not and do so for whatever reason you want. You don't have to give a reason, but since you have and a prolonged one at that, you do seem to have some issues. It may be best that you not talk to the cops. Your words are very revealing about things other than the issue at hand.

If they want to shorten a list of suspects to concentrate on, it sounds legit to me … but why are they asking for old addresses and phone numbers if that’s the case ?

Records that are several years old aren't likely to have new addresses and phone numbers, now are they?

[OPC]

So, if a shop owner acedes to this request, what happens to the records (assuming copies are provided) if they're deemed not pertinent to the investigation? Are they destroyed? Filed into evidence? Do they become part of the public record and searchable by the general public upon case closure? Is it auditable/verifiable that proper disposition of the files is made? How does one verify that the documents are only used for the purposes indicated? Is this method of securing evidence, in essence a gov't document, even legal for prosecution purposes?

It seems to me a subpeona would eliminate all doubt. Let the police focus their investigation and request a court subpeona.