Civilian Tactics in this (real) situation:

[Lost Sheep]

Scenario:

You are a civilian, legally carrying a concealed firearm. You are exiting a store and you hear shots right outside, but not in sight. You see people running and ducking behind cover (which tells you the direction of the threat). You recall that when you entered the store that there was a political gathering (not a protest) in that area.

(Not to leave police officers and related professionals out of the answer pool, please give the answers you would LIKE to hear civilians ANSWER, and -separate concept- what you would like to see civilians DO.)

This is the situation (slightly embellished) presented to Joe Zamudio in Tuscon on 1/8/11.

To flesh out my questions, see information at
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/voices...rest-of-the-us
and this story which carried the byline:
Gabrielle Giffords and the perils of guns: How an armed hero nearly shot the wrong man. By William Saletan
http://www.slate.com/id/2280794/

1-What would you do? (Go to the scene to get involved, go to the scene to be a good witness, re-enter the store and cover, leave, (these are not the only options, just a sampling).

Joe Zamudio put his hand on his weapon and proceeded in the direction of the shooting, to help. When he got there he found a scuffle in progress and saw a man with a gun.

2-What would you do?

Speculation: You have proceeded to the scene of the shooting. For whatever reason, you have a gun in your hand (your own, wrested from the shooter, found on the ground, whatever). Another civilian orders you to disarm yourself. You have no indication if the other civilian is a "good guy" or a "bad guy".

3-What would you do if the other civilian is
a) not armed or
b) armed and not got the "drop" on you or
c) armed and has got the drop on you (the answer to "C" should be obvious, but I included it for symmety) or
d) armed, but you have got the drop on him?

Please also give a short description of your relevant experience and
training, particularly with regard to civilian force-on-force situations.

Two slightly off-subject questions also came to mind as I was composing this post:

Would appearance (i.e. attire or grooming) of the persons you encounter make a difference?

Particularly if appearance would make a difference to how you would approach/deal with armed persons at the scene of a shooting, do you take your own grooming and attire into account when you go armed? That is, believing that appearance affects how others perceive you, do you use your appearance as part of your self-defense equipment?

Lost Sheep

P.S. Please do not waste time discussing the bad practice of taking his gun off safety before removing it from concealment (his pocket) or whether or not a holster was used or should have been used.

Save those questions for another thread, please.

[atlctyslkr]

I don't feel it's a good idea for the regular joe to get involved in most situations that don't directly affect him. There are cases of armed civlilans who have stopped rapes or assisted cops who were getting the tar kicked out of them but this isn't one of those. As a private citizen you're not going to have the instant recognition of "the good guy in uniform" and you run the risk of doing more harm than good.

[raimius]

It depends...

Factors for me:
A. Am I alone? If I have others with/around me, I'll probably try to secure us/them first.
B. Is the shooting still going? If yes, I would be VERY cautious. If no, I might move quicker.
C. Is my car near/on the path to the shooting? I have enough supplies to treat several GSWs in my car. If the active shooter is down, I'll do more good organizing and treating the wounded than running around with a gun.
D. Physical area--If I know it is wide-open with a large crowd, I am less inclined to try to intervene. I know my pistol accuracy degrades under stress, and I don't want to wind up in a moving 50yd shootout with a pistol!

As for encountering someone commanding me to drop my gun, I would comply. Most active shooters shoot first. IMO, odds are if the person is giving you warnings, they are probably not an active shooter.

For demeanor/clothing, I would take it into consideration if their actions were not immediately clear. A person walking around and shooting random people...pretty clear.

In a dynamic situation where I cannot see a clear threat I would not be running around at high ready. My hand would be on the pistol, but in the holster. Again, the guy with his hand on a holstered pistol is not as noticeable/threatening as the active shooter with drawn weapons.

My training: Utah CCW class, several years of military-related training (3X per week of marksmanship and tactical shooting scenarios), a few day-long courses in tactical shooting, a 2-day course from a SWAT instructor, and a 5 day shoothouse instructor course.

[JerryM]

Quote.
I don't feel it's a good idea for the regular joe to get involved in most situations that don't directly affect him. There are cases of armed civlilans who have stopped rapes or assisted cops who were getting the tar kicked out of them but this isn't one of those. As a private citizen you're not going to have the instant recognition of "the good guy in uniform" and you run the risk of doing more harm than good.
End Quote

I agree. I am neither an off duty cop, nor a knight in shining armor.

Regards,
Jerry

[kozak6]

It depends.

Where is my car? If it's close and I think I can get to it safely, I get in and LEAVE NOW.

If I don't think I can get to it, I go back in the store and out the back door and keep going until I feel safe. Maybe call family to let them know I'm ok.

I'm not a cop. I'm not a superhero. I don't carry, so what can I even do anyways?

[Glenn Dee]

A no-win situation

[BlueTrain]

While it is often said here that the police have no obligation to protect you, by the same token then, you probably have no obligation to protect others (strangers) either--or authority either.

[dabigguns357]

More often than not a good cell phone and better cover will be better than some one running around trying to find the shooter.

Unless it directly affects my family and/or me then i'm more likely to d,b,w(duck,bob and weave).

I make my choice because i wood either be described as the shooter or a second shooter and not the hero running to save lives.Also because to many people would rather be victims than save them selves.I don't have the time or energy to save them and my family,so my family would have to come first.

[Skans]

This is not a no-win situation. I would win, because the only thing I'm going to change is the pace at which I continue traveling to my car. When I get there, I'll call 911. I win.

Since I am in no immediate danger and neither is my family, I have no intention of interjecting myself into a highly charged, violent situation, when I am already clear of it. I recognize that I have neither the training nor the equipment to do any good in the scenario proposed.

[JC5503]

It seems as if the less risky option would be to
A) Make a good witness and only draw your weapon if you are in immediate danger. Or

B) Don't put yourself in that situation if you dont have to.

Chances are that if there is a political gathering there is going to be some kind of security present (uniformed or plain clothed LE) especially after the Arizona incident. You showing up there with a weapon drawn will only add to the confusion.

[juntau]

I agree with above (JC553) there are enough plainclothes police officers getting shot/kill by responding uniforms

[egor20]

Its simple for me, I carry a 1911 and a cell phone, unless it immediately affects me or my family I'm using the 911 option, not the 1911 option. I've managed to get to 46 years of age and I'd rather not be shot for the first time, by the good guys. My CCW didn't come with a badge and cuffs.

[4runnerman]

Get in a good Tac position,do not draw gun,but have ready.Help as many people out of harms way. You are not a cop ,but you are a human with compassion i hope. I would do it for your wife and kids do it for mine too.

[Onward Allusion]

Observe/Report to 911 dispatch. Unless it's situation where the BG is clearly identified AND there's a clear & present danger to innocents (i.e. guy going around methodically shooting people) AND no LE is present, a civilian should not get physically involved unless it's just helping folks get out.

[FireForged]

What would I do?

If I exited a store to hear gunfire and see people running, I will take my behind back into the store. I will warn the customers and employees inside the store that there is danger outside. If there are other exits I will explore them. If leaving the store means I have to be in the wide open, I will probably stay in the store. If I stay, I will observe from a good place to defend myself from if necessary.

[TheGoldenState]

I'm not a cop. I'm not a superhero. I don't carry, so what can I even do anyways?

LOL, made me laugh.

(you know, since the thread is about carrying)

[Double Naught Spy]

Civilian Tactics in this (real) situation:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenario:

You are a civilian, legally carrying a concealed firearm. You are exiting a store and you hear shots right outside, but not in sight. You see people running and ducking behind cover (which tells you the direction of the threat).

Nicely realistic and shows just how much an individual not present at the start of the event (like Zamudio) may actually understand about what is going on and hence know what action that needs to be taken. Zamudio arrived late and the gunman was already grounded, which may have turned out best for all involved.

[Kevin Rohrer]

From a purely survival standpoint, you would take-up a good defensive position, call 9-1-1, and remain observant, while protecting those in your immediate vicinity.

From a societal standpoint, you would call 9-1-1, then goto the area of the shooting, watch and observe, then take action if possible.

If it was some gangs battling it out between them, I'd help get the sheep (citizenry) out of harms way (if possible), then let the trash kill each other. If it was alQueda pulling more of their "kill them all and let God sort them out" nonsense, then I'd be helping them meet Allah.

[therewolf]

egor20 in post #12 was pretty sensible, IMO.

When you guys got your CWP/CHL in the mail, they came with a letter and instructions.

Did anyone besides me actually read that stuff?

There's not a lot of good that can be gained from standing in for a trained LEO.
But if anything goes wrong, everyone will question your actions.

[Lost Sheep]

I really admire the handful of unarmed people who were 1) in a position to and 2) willing to 3) able to and 4) lucky enough to disarm an active shooter half their ages. I also wondered that in Arizona (even at a function for a Democrat) there were not more armed civilians close enough to return fire. (I am not immune to preconceived notions, and it has been nearly 30 years since I lived there.)

Originally Posted by therewolf

But if anything goes wrong, everyone will question your actions.

Therewolf, you've got THAT right. Joe Zamudio has been both lionized and demonized by the small section of the press that mentions him at all. Obviously the bulk of the nation's media has a blind spot. As you point out, prosecutors will not.

When I started this thread, I was soliciting more tactical observations. Legal rights, shoot/don't shoot, stuff like that.

What I got is eye-opening, and appreciated.

What I expected was ratification of my preconceived notions.

What I got is a reality check (which we all need once in a while, right?). I will study hard and use all your comments to inform my future plans.

Thank you, everyone.

Lost Sheep

[Rob Pincus]

Great Thread.... Too often, on other internet forums, this would've degraded into hyperbole and SWAT-Wannabee-bravado. This is an excellent example of why TFL is still the classiest place to talk gunstuff on the net.

We carry firearms to defend ourselves, our friends and our families. Running towards the bang-bang sounds is for the guys with the badges and uniforms.

-RJP

[fawcettlee]

A Baltimore City plainclothes officer was killed by officers from his own precinct as he was responding to a distress call by another officer outside of a nightclub. He was shot by four officers who just saw a guy pointing a gun.
By all accounts, Officer William Torbit, Jr. was a dedicated and popular policeman who was very active in the community and respected by his fellow officers. Not only him, but a civilian was killed as a result of the 41 shots that the four officers fired.
If that can happen to a guy who works in your own precinct, I'd hate to think what would happen to a civilian.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...,4108960.story
(Baltimore Sun)

[youngunz4life]

I agree it isn't wise to run towards the bang-bang, so I am siding with most of the posts already mentioned. However, what would you do if a bank was being robbed by one armed assailant and he is being physical with a teller and threatening people's lives? Do you hang tight on the ground as ordered, or do you take a shot you think you can manage from your position? this isn't a loaded question or a trick question; I am just curious what the census would be on a similar scenario with a twist.

[raimius]

Generally, retreating or hiding is the best way to go from a survival and legal standpoint.

I have a special hatred of active shooters and hate the idea of not stopping an attrocity when I had an opportunity. That might lead me to take the higher-risk/higher-reward option in some cases (the reward being helping some people and maybe having a clearer personal conscience). I'm not saying that's a good option for anyone else, or even a great personal option.

I've pretty much decided that IF I see an opportunity to end the situation, I will try to take it.

[therewolf]

Yes, raimius,

I also foresee the day when a roomful of armed citizens draw down on a

perpetrator and yell "FREEZE" in unison...(OOPS)

But, for now, I can't help feeling that most CCWs carry guns which aren't exactly crime intervention grade, not to put too fine a point on it.

A .380 or .25 is great for CQB or SD, and they're wondrous tech, don't get me wrong, but there's a good reason LEOs haven't adopted them as sidearms.

I'm cautious, and my CCW is a full-size service pistol.