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July 15, 2010, 11:36 AM | #26 | |
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
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July 15, 2010, 11:42 AM | #27 | |
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July 15, 2010, 11:46 AM | #28 |
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I'd have to view the National Guard as an evolved militia, yet some states have additional forces with various names, like Home Guard. One of their functions is to man the national guard armories when the national guard is deployed elsewhere. Here is a basic problem, which is the deployment of the national guard. The national guard does have home state duties, which they are often called upon to perform. Deployment of national guard units overseas leaves a serious gap sometimes. As far as I know, there's nothing the governor can do about it. The original theory was that increased reliance on army reserve and national guard units, like we actually have been doing, would have to mean the public's approval would be necessary for large scale operations involving those units. I don't know it it has worked out that way or not.
While many Revolutionary War period units did in fact employ many men armed with their personally owned weapons, generally rifles, as rifles in this country were generally not provided in military units, the vast majority of weapons were provided by governments, including the Continental Congress. That was even true before the revolution and the sparks that set off the beginnings of the revolution were attempts by the British in both Boston and Williamsburg to confiscate those militia weapons which were centrally stored. But there were enough in private hands to give the British some trouble on the way back from Lexington. The states differed somewhat in both their ability and willingness to equip army units.
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July 15, 2010, 01:24 PM | #29 |
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I am not familiar enough with the Texas State Guard to answer those questions. All I know is:
1. There are pictures on the Net purporting to be Texas State Guard guys in Iraq/Afghanistan. 2. There are pictures on the Net of Texas State Guard guys armed with M9s. 3. In the 1980s, the State of Texas awarded a contract to Holloway Arms to provide the HAC-7 .308 rifle for the State Guard. |
July 16, 2010, 11:38 AM | #30 |
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New here and found this thread from my Google alert I have set up for the Texas State Guard.
Texas State Guard members have in the past been issued weapons from the National Guard Armories. However, TXSG personnel are expected to have access to personal weapons if needed. This is a REQUIREMENT for personnel assigned to the Quick Reaction Teams. These requirements are for 9mm handguns that are on an approved list. Unfortunately, there is no official logistical supply for ammunition set up, so TXSG personnel have to bring there own. Presumably, the 9mm criteria are there for possible resupply by the state or federal government in the field. Quick Reaction Teams (QRT) main duties and training focus are Force Protection, Infrastructure Protection, and most recently Wide Area Damage Assessment. QRT members are required to qualify with their handguns every year. Qualification for non QRT TXSG members is optional. QRT members train one weekend a month and almost always one day is at the firing range. TXSG are not subject to Federal military service any more than the average citizen are. However, it is not unheard of for TXSG members to leave state and enter federal service or for prior federal service members in the TXSG to be called up by the federal service. There are also some TXSG members on extended leave providing private security overseas. This explains why you see TXSG being represented overseas, but they are actually in federal or private service. TXSG participates in the Small Arms Readiness Training programs and competitions provided by the National Guard for rifle, pistol, machine gun and sniper. TXSG for the past 3 years have dominated the competitions over all of the reserve federal forces taking most of the trophies and Governor's 20 tabs in rifle and pistol. Again, TXSG personnel are required to provide and compete with their personal civilian equivalent firearms and ammunition (groan). In summary, most TXSG are not armed. However some are and take their job very seriously and display a high level proficiency and professionalism. Last edited by RunAndGun; July 16, 2010 at 01:00 PM. |
July 16, 2010, 12:30 PM | #31 |
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If you think there will ever be a perfect system for the militia based either on something in Constituiton or on something given to us by the Lady of the Lake, dream on. How our rights enter into it is another story.
Many countries have or have had a form of militia, generally in various components. Ours of course consists of the national guard, if you care to include it, plus state guards as described already. I'd have to say the army reserve and the other reserves are more like second line regular forces, though that is not a good way to describe it, especially since they are sometimes on the front lines. But generally speaking, the militia has been that element that is never deployed, that is, not deployed overseas. You could get technical and talk about who controls the militia (at which level, that is) and that is something of a problem. Obviously, it has to be controlled by the government and usually it means the state government. The federal government seems to have set up the national guard to really be an element of the national army, for better or for worse. There have sometimes been conflict between locally controlled militias and nationally controlled armies in that there is sometimes a kind of competition for manpower. At the moment that doesn't seem to be a problem but in wartime or other emergencies it has been. Arms for the militia is also a problem and always has been since from before the revolution. While it might be nice to think that all able-bodied men were willing and able to muster at the hue and cry completely equipped, it never worked out that way. You know how good people are at obeying the law and the militia law was no different. But it was better than nothing, though the revolution was a close run thing. These days it would be even more difficult to expect much in the way of a meaningful body of armed men if they were left to their own means. Tell me, someone, what was the state of the militia during those dark days of the late 60s when the country was falling apart and so many big cities had real riots?
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July 16, 2010, 12:56 PM | #32 | |
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The National Guard and the militia are two completely different entities.
The militia is unorganized and not subject to call up by the federal government. I am a member of the Militia as are most of the men on this board, whether they know it or not. A militia is a local entity that is a organization of last resort to maintain and restore order in the absence of other civil authority. It is from the militia that Guardsmen are recruited. I am also a member of the National Guard and it is part of that organization that I am now overseas. I am subject to the UCMJ, get provided uniforms and equipment and train to the same standard (or something very close to it) as the regular army. To equate the National Guard with the militia is an insult and ignores our high standards of professionalism, personal sacrifice, and repeated foreign service. While it is true that all guardsmen are in the militia, all militia are certainly not in the Guard. Quote:
Last edited by ISC; July 16, 2010 at 01:06 PM. |
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July 16, 2010, 05:26 PM | #33 | |||||
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July 16, 2010, 05:43 PM | #34 | |||
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My reading of 32 USC 109 would make the Texas State Guard a state defense force and not the militia found in the COTUS.
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July 16, 2010, 07:12 PM | #35 | |
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July 16, 2010, 07:14 PM | #36 |
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I cannot for the life of me figure out how to quote in this forum! Help anyone?
In response to Tennessee Gentleman's question regarding issuance of weapons from National Guard Armories: I have no cite showing when this has taken place and for what missions but there are numerous photographic examples in the Texas Military Forces Museum at Camp Mabry in Austin Texas, published history books pertaining to the TXSG, as well as from my personal photo collection from training missions I have been involved in. When we were MP's (prior to changing to Civil Affairs) we provided security for the National Guard during FTX's as well as occasionally being OPFOR. We were armed with M16's and M9's if the mission called for it. You quoted my post pertaining to why TXSG has been represented overseas and quoted the enlistment requirements adding your own bold type. Was there a question or a statement in there that I missed? Yes. TXSG is a State Defense Force. Thanks........RunAndGun |
July 16, 2010, 08:38 PM | #37 | ||
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July 16, 2010, 10:13 PM | #38 | ||
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The National Guard is not a State Militia (armed or not). Even Heller conceded that point: Quote:
The National Guard is as much a select militia as is a standing army. They are in fact, one and the same. See Congressional Budgets (ยง8, cl. 12: but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years). If the Guard were not a Federal creation, then the Congress would not be bound by the militia appropriations clause. State Defense Forces, were a concession to the constitution, made by the congress when it fully and completely federalized the various State Guards. Can we now stop beating this dead horse? |
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July 18, 2010, 01:41 AM | #39 | |
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Al is also correct when he says State Defense Forces were a concession to the constitution when the National Guard was put under the control of the Federal government. You may disagree with Heller in this regard but the Court did make the above quoted conclusion. Last edited by RDak; July 18, 2010 at 01:47 AM. |
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July 18, 2010, 08:20 AM | #40 |
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Well RDak as you know I have claimed all along that there is no more militia and it is a dead letter.
As to Heller did you read the quote (Post#33)above from MARYLAND V. UNITED STATES, 381 U. S. 41 (1965)? Might want to think about that some more. You may disagree with it but the Court did make the above quoted conclusion. The Guard is the lineal descendant of the Well-Regulated Militia of the 2A. Since the militia system didn't work and nobody wanted to be in it then the NG came along and eventually was federalized. It was just another nail in the coffin of an idea (citizens militia) whose time had long since passed. From what I have read and seen in my own state these "State Defense Forces" are no more armed militia than I am an Olympic Athlete (and I ain't one) They are support (IT, Medical and logisitcal) and ceremonial outfits to supplement manpower with volunteers. Not the miltia of 1789.
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; July 18, 2010 at 08:25 AM. |
July 18, 2010, 12:00 PM | #41 |
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Quick History Lesson
Now, while the Guard, in this case, the Army National Guard, does indeed trace it's history back to the Mass. Bay Colony in 1636 (182nd Infantry Regiment, 101st Engineer Battalion and 181st Infantry Regiment of the Massachusetts Army National Guard are directly descended from Massachusetts Bay Colony regiments formed over 370 years ago), it was not what we today would consider the Guard. It was at that time a citizen-militia of the kind and type exemplified by the founders in the Federalists Papers.
However.... Shortly before the civil war, 2nd Battalion, 11th New York Artillery renamed itself as the "National Guard" in honor of the Marquis de Lafayette (who commanded the "Garde Nationale de Paris" in the early days of the French Revolution). New York renamed its entire militia as the New York National Guard shortly after the outbreak of the civil war. After the civil war, several States began to follow the lead of New York in renaming their militia. It wasn't until 1903 that the title, "National Guard," was used by the federal government when many of the States Militias were federalized. In 1916, all State militias were federalized as the National Guard. The Guard is therefore a federally created select militia. Finally, in 1990, the State Governors lost all control of "their" Guard in Perpich v. Dept of Defense, 496 U.S. 334. The writing was on the wall, long before this, however. I could go on, for some length, but Tennessee the argument is not whether the militia is useful or its time is past, the argument is that the National Guard is not the citizen-militia of the States. Regardless of what the Supremes have said (obiter dicta), the history is explicit. None of the above is meant to detract from what the Guard is or does. It is merely to set the documented and historical record straight. |
July 18, 2010, 04:36 PM | #42 | ||
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A slightly different view
Al, I won't refute your history but might but a different nuance to it.
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; July 18, 2010 at 04:45 PM. |
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July 18, 2010, 04:44 PM | #43 | ||
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
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July 19, 2010, 06:42 AM | #44 |
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Well, I think a good case can still be made that the states all need their own military force, in spite of the fact that the national guard is subject to federal call up. In fact, mostly because of that fact, since the guard is used so much for local emergencies, there being no equivalent organization that can be used instead. When the guard is deployed, the state is kind of left high and dry when there's a flood or something.
But, it seems I'm too old to qualify in the first place. My time in the guard was about 35 years ago (the D.C. National Guard), about 7 years after I got out of the army.
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Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. Last edited by BlueTrain; July 20, 2010 at 06:55 AM. |
July 19, 2010, 09:13 AM | #45 | |
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July 19, 2010, 09:33 AM | #46 |
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While I agree that the police have become more militarized, I don't think the reasons have anything to do with the national guard, and besides, that is another topic altogether. Most states already have state police that function as, well, a state police force and they have always been fairly militaristic in form and fashion, pretty much the same as the RCMP and the Carabinieri in Italy, only there is no equivalent uniformed national police in the U.S. that function the same as those other bodies.
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July 19, 2010, 07:18 PM | #47 |
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Talk about thread drift... Wow!
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July 19, 2010, 10:57 PM | #48 |
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Yup. Even I got carried away... After I made it clear to get back on topic.
ISC, do you want the thread closed for thread drift? Your call. |
July 20, 2010, 08:01 AM | #49 | |
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July 20, 2010, 08:25 AM | #50 |
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I don't mind the drift, it brought us to the cusp of the ultimate safeguard from abusive actions by our government: an armed citizen militia.
I understand that discussing the ultimate check and balence against government abuse is a forbidden subject here. I was hoping we could focus more on the measures that could be taken short of armed insurrection. When legal action ceases to be an effective option due to corruption or politicized judges the options seem to be civil disobedience (as in Ghandi and Martin Luther King) or violent destruction (as in WATTs and Rodney King) I have to wonder which path is more productive in the world today. I also wonder if civil disobedience is even an option when the media is dominated by an oligarchy that is antithetical to the private ownership of firearms. This is further complicated when we are facing the very real possibility of censorship of alternative media sources by regulation and taxing of the internet and reinstitution of "The Fairness Doctrine". I am in the position of many of the other military and law enforcement members here. We'll have to decide on a personal basis where we draw the line and refuse to follow orders and enforce unconstitutional laws. |
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