anybody know CALIF LAW?

lincoln1 · August 19, 2007, 03:32 AM

the law is stricter here than in most states, as most know. in addition to the ban on high capacity mags (over 10 rounds) our law says we cannot have semi-automatic, centerfire rifles with detachable mags PLUS the conditions a-f.
a)pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously under the action of the weapon.
b)thumbhole stock
c)folding or telescoping stock
d)grenade launcher/flare launcher
e)flash suppressor
f)forward pistol grip

the CALIF assault weapon law continues that NO semi-automatic Pistols may have a 2nd handgrip. that means no forward grip whatsoever but certainly is clear that the intention is different than that for the semi-automatic rifle which says no forward pistol grip.

the rifle law is pretty clear. we know what a), b), c) look like, and know if the rifle has a d) grenade launcher function. e) was addressed by replacing the flash suppressor with a muzzle brake. but what is unclear is what is the definition of a "forward pistol grip"? i get the image of the old "tommy gun" in black & white movies, but when i shop for real life products there are plenty of gadgets to grab onto that mount forward and under like a bipod, a flashlight, or laser that aren't shaped like a pistol grip - but may include some sort of area which functions as a grab-handle. .

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

any lawful californians who understand the Bill of Rights including the 1st & 2nd amendments, have any opinion?

Scorch · August 19, 2007, 04:11 PM

You had better read that law again before you start trying to analyze what can and can't be owned. It does not say "PLUS the following", it says "ANY of the following".

Quote:

California Firearms Laws 2007 10
The term “assault weapon” also means any firearm that falls under one of the following definitions
pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable
magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to
accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and
any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip,
or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that
allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide
that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the
pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more
than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,
thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
The following definitions shall apply relative to defining assault weapons:
(1) "Magazine" shall mean any ammunition feeding device.
(2) "Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of
accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding
device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10
rounds.

My opinion is that California has passed a law abridging the right to keep and bear arms, but I doubt that you will want to take that to court. Even if you win, it will be extremely expensive to do so.

lincoln1 · August 20, 2007, 02:02 AM

not trying to be an atty, wouldn't want the hate mail. but "and any of the following" still requires the first to "trigger" the second. so OK, yes, we are talking about a center fire semi rifle, so AND is not the same as IN ADDITION TO or PLUS or COMBINED WITH?

lincoln1 · August 20, 2007, 02:18 AM

not trying to be an atty, wouldn't the responsibility.. but "...AND any of the following" still requires the first to thing to "trigger" the AND. OK we are talking about a center fire semi rifle, so the first thing is present...so AND isn't it the same as "IN ADDITION TO" or "PLUS" or "COMBINED WITH" because it certainly doesn't mean ALL BY ITSELF REGARDLESS OF A-F.

of course that i am speaking in lay terms, legal jargon excluded. and that wasn't the question, because regardless, if the thing is a pistol grip than it is, but if it is not a pistol grip then it is then it is not. what is a PISTOL GRIP? only a definition tells.

like i said, i can duct tape a maglight to the forward end of a M1A so i can read notes on the ceiling or maybe the floor while it physically still a flashlight . is that now a pistol grip because maglights are BAD?

should i be without s falshlight# without closeure?

Evil Dog · August 20, 2007, 08:59 AM

At one time my Uberti-made Winchester 73 lever gun was on the assault list because the tubular magazine would hold more than 10 rounds. My favorite "who would have thought" though was being of military design, greater than 70 caliber and capable of fixing a bayonette my Brown Bess flintlock was considered an assault rifle !!!

Scorch · August 20, 2007, 11:25 PM

IF it is centerfire AND an autoloading rifle AND capable of accepting a detachable magazine, THEN it is a banned weapon IF it has one or more of the following . . .

There, is that better?

lincoln1 · August 21, 2007, 06:54 AM

yes, i meant PLUS ANY 1 of "a-f" triggers the definition of banned assault weapon, mostly not unclear, and you probably noticed i included the website for CA DOJ's handbook which BTW i have read almost every year for nearly 20 years, starting before internet and when you had to ask for a copy to be mailed to you and pay a fee and of course everybody should but i assume many already do.

so, maybe we can discuss something here, instead of going over the obvious and re-printing, cut and paste copies of that government publication.

so if you can think about it, what was cut and pasted "A-E" are all very self explanatory, but "F" IS NOT. "F" is ambiguous and/or vague. if i duct taped mother of pearl revolver grips from my grandmother's Colt somewhere near the muzzle or forward end, that had no function nor permanent attachment, it kind of meets the definition of forward pistol grip(s). if i attach a ferrari gear shift knob aluminum ball to a s/s rod which attaches to anyone's lower pic rail, which seems like it would work as an excellent handle - but clearly is a ferrari gear shift knob because it says so on it, and therefore not a pistol grip.

i was asking originally if anybody knew the definition of a forward pistol grip (used for rules of rifles 1-F) that has been in court, and upheld...as opposed to a forward grip (used for rules of pistols-4B) as when i read the law, the rifle law adds a word to the definition "pistol". the ferrari gear shift knob forward on a pistol is not legal because it is a place to grip, whereas on a rifle it sounds legal. rifles require we hold them with both hands so we need forward grips of some sort.

there are so many accessories that can be attached to pic rails right now and even more that are on the way, and some laws serve a purpose if they make sense and are clear - but others that are neither should be revised or discarded, especially when it applies to an interest for all of us. i really don't feel like jeopordizing my liberty or possible confiscation of my hard earned personal property just because of a misunderstanding about what "looks like this but really doesn't do that" kind of crap.

a multi-tiered weather-proof flashlight and tactical laser arrangement mounted on a lower pic rail with rubber coating and easy to grasp ergonomic on-off switches, for us with sore hands, that fingers could hold like a pistol. not originally be intended for that, but sounds legal to me...

is that a little more specific to the original question, what is the definition of a forward psitol grip??? does anyone have knowledge of CA LAW ? any DOJ, LE, or CA attorneys? BTW, i have some MOP pistol grips and duct tape i can't use anymore if anyone needs...

August 19, 2007, 03:32 AM	#1
lincoln1 Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Location: san francisco Posts: 28	anybody know CALIF LAW? the law is stricter here than in most states, as most know. in addition to the ban on high capacity mags (over 10 rounds) our law says we cannot have semi-automatic, centerfire rifles with detachable mags PLUS the conditions a-f. a)pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously under the action of the weapon. b)thumbhole stock c)folding or telescoping stock d)grenade launcher/flare launcher e)flash suppressor f)forward pistol grip the CALIF assault weapon law continues that NO semi-automatic Pistols may have a 2nd handgrip. that means no forward grip whatsoever but certainly is clear that the intention is different than that for the semi-automatic rifle which says no forward pistol grip. the rifle law is pretty clear. we know what a), b), c) look like, and know if the rifle has a d) grenade launcher function. e) was addressed by replacing the flash suppressor with a muzzle brake. but what is unclear is what is the definition of a "forward pistol grip"? i get the image of the old "tommy gun" in black & white movies, but when i shop for real life products there are plenty of gadgets to grab onto that mount forward and under like a bipod, a flashlight, or laser that aren't shaped like a pistol grip - but may include some sort of area which functions as a grab-handle. . http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf any lawful californians who understand the Bill of Rights including the 1st & 2nd amendments, have any opinion?

August 20, 2007, 08:59 AM	#5
Evil Dog Member Join Date: April 30, 2007 Location: So Cal Desert Posts: 88	At one time my Uberti-made Winchester 73 lever gun was on the assault list because the tubular magazine would hold more than 10 rounds. My favorite "who would have thought" though was being of military design, greater than 70 caliber and capable of fixing a bayonette my Brown Bess flintlock was considered an assault rifle !!! __________________ Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote. - Benjamin Franklin (1759)

August 20, 2007, 11:25 PM	#6
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	IF it is centerfire AND an autoloading rifle AND capable of accepting a detachable magazine, THEN it is a banned weapon IF it has one or more of the following . . . There, is that better? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 20, 2007, 02:02 AM	#3
lincoln1 Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Location: san francisco Posts: 28	not trying to be an atty, wouldn't want the hate mail. but "and any of the following" still requires the first to "trigger" the second. so OK, yes, we are talking about a center fire semi rifle, so AND is not the same as IN ADDITION TO or PLUS or COMBINED WITH?

August 20, 2007, 02:18 AM	#4
lincoln1 Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Location: san francisco Posts: 28	not trying to be an atty, wouldn't the responsibility.. but "...AND any of the following" still requires the first to thing to "trigger" the AND. OK we are talking about a center fire semi rifle, so the first thing is present...so AND isn't it the same as "IN ADDITION TO" or "PLUS" or "COMBINED WITH" because it certainly doesn't mean ALL BY ITSELF REGARDLESS OF A-F. of course that i am speaking in lay terms, legal jargon excluded. and that wasn't the question, because regardless, if the thing is a pistol grip than it is, but if it is not a pistol grip then it is then it is not. what is a PISTOL GRIP? only a definition tells. like i said, i can duct tape a maglight to the forward end of a M1A so i can read notes on the ceiling or maybe the floor while it physically still a flashlight . is that now a pistol grip because maglights are BAD? should i be without s falshlight# without closeure?

August 21, 2007, 06:54 AM	#7
lincoln1 Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Location: san francisco Posts: 28	yes, i meant PLUS ANY 1 of "a-f" triggers the definition of banned assault weapon, mostly not unclear, and you probably noticed i included the website for CA DOJ's handbook which BTW i have read almost every year for nearly 20 years, starting before internet and when you had to ask for a copy to be mailed to you and pay a fee and of course everybody should but i assume many already do. so, maybe we can discuss something here, instead of going over the obvious and re-printing, cut and paste copies of that government publication. so if you can think about it, what was cut and pasted "A-E" are all very self explanatory, but "F" IS NOT. "F" is ambiguous and/or vague. if i duct taped mother of pearl revolver grips from my grandmother's Colt somewhere near the muzzle or forward end, that had no function nor permanent attachment, it kind of meets the definition of forward pistol grip(s). if i attach a ferrari gear shift knob aluminum ball to a s/s rod which attaches to anyone's lower pic rail, which seems like it would work as an excellent handle - but clearly is a ferrari gear shift knob because it says so on it, and therefore not a pistol grip. i was asking originally if anybody knew the definition of a forward pistol grip (used for rules of rifles 1-F) that has been in court, and upheld...as opposed to a forward grip (used for rules of pistols-4B) as when i read the law, the rifle law adds a word to the definition "pistol". the ferrari gear shift knob forward on a pistol is not legal because it is a place to grip, whereas on a rifle it sounds legal. rifles require we hold them with both hands so we need forward grips of some sort. there are so many accessories that can be attached to pic rails right now and even more that are on the way, and some laws serve a purpose if they make sense and are clear - but others that are neither should be revised or discarded, especially when it applies to an interest for all of us. i really don't feel like jeopordizing my liberty or possible confiscation of my hard earned personal property just because of a misunderstanding about what "looks like this but really doesn't do that" kind of crap. a multi-tiered weather-proof flashlight and tactical laser arrangement mounted on a lower pic rail with rubber coating and easy to grasp ergonomic on-off switches, for us with sore hands, that fingers could hold like a pistol. not originally be intended for that, but sounds legal to me... is that a little more specific to the original question, what is the definition of a forward psitol grip??? does anyone have knowledge of CA LAW ? any DOJ, LE, or CA attorneys? BTW, i have some MOP pistol grips and duct tape i can't use anymore if anyone needs...