Question about priming with Lee Classic Turret

ScotchMan · December 9, 2011, 01:10 PM

Hi all, I've been having an issue with my .45ACP reloads where the primers are not seating deeply enough. This is with the large primer arm on a Lee Classic Turret (I do not use the Safety Prime system). All of my small primer calibers (9mm, .38spl), seat nice and deep with no additional force needed.

What can I do to get the press to seat large primers a bit more deeply? If I push REALLY hard on the ram, I can get them a little deeper but still not as nice as my small primers. I don't see any kind of adjustment I can do to the press.

I am considering buying a new large primer seating arm (http://leeprecision.com/xcart/P-ARM-ASSM-LARGE.html) Is this a worthwhile step to try? Any other ideas?

floydster · December 9, 2011, 01:40 PM

Seat them till they won't go anymore, you will be good to go.
Have loaded many thousands of 45 ACP on my Lee turret, never a problem.
Seat them with authority is all you have to do.
Tula/Wolf primers are a little harder to seat.

Brian Pfleuger · December 9, 2011, 01:48 PM

Are they below flush, and have your loads exhibited any issues associated with the primers?

If the answer are yes, no, then don't worry about it.

I've never paid any attention to how deep my primers seat. I push them until they stop and then give the handle a little extra shove, wherever they end up has worked 100% so far.

ScotchMan · December 9, 2011, 02:13 PM

I never did either until I got a new gun that wouldn't fire my reloads consistently. After correcting another issue with the reloads, and replacing the hammer spring on the gun, I am now confident the primer depth is the issue. I can fire factory loads fine, and I cherry picked some reloads with better-than-average depth and they fired as well. But my average reloads have about a 70% failure rate on the first strike; I got one load that I hit 10 times and it would not fire, it had a crater-sized strike mark in the primer.

I can seat them "with authority", and they are still not as deep as my small primer-primed reloads that I don't think about. While I could probably escape the issue by doing this, I am hoping to find a mechanical solution where I can continue priming "hard enough" and have them seat as deeply as my other calibers.

I am using Winchester primers. I could try another manufacturer too I suppose.

Brian Pfleuger · December 9, 2011, 02:30 PM

Sounds to me like a case problem. The primer arm is pretty foolproof. First thing I'd do is deprime one that seems incorrect, one that seems correct and measure the primers, primer holes and the anvil on the priming arm.

BerettaPx4 · December 9, 2011, 02:40 PM

Hello Scotchman
It might help if you use a primer pocket reamer to size the pockets. Some of the factory ammo has pockets that have been swedged slightly. This slight swedge at the beginning of the pocket can make re-priming difficult. Any problem that I have had with inserting primers, was solved by using a pocket reamer.
regards
Ed

JMHO, but from my experience working in the gun industry, it is not safe to use cartridges with high primers in an automatic firearm. It can cause a possible "slam fire". You might get away with it for awhile, but it's like playing Russian roulette. It only takes once.

springer99 · December 9, 2011, 02:44 PM

If you lower the ram with the shell-holder emply and your large primer seater doesn't come flush with or above the shell-holder base , there might be a problem with that particular primer ram. Otherwise, there is no adjustment that I'm aware of. Did you try other cases?

ScotchMan · December 9, 2011, 02:58 PM

The majority of my cases are from a box of 250 Remington UMC I purchased some time ago and have been fired once. The rest are range pickups. Certainly some of the cases seem to require less effort to seat the primer, but I believe I can get any of them deep enough if I push *really* hard.

I have some Federal cases from a box of American Eagle I just bought to troubleshoot the above issue, also once-fired (by me). I will use them to troubleshoot once I get down to the bench again, but the truth is I will continue using mixed cases like I have with my other calibers.

Is it possible a different brand of primers might seat a little easier in this particular press with these particular cases?

The primer ram does come up VERY slightly above the top of the shellholder. However my small primer ram comes up a tiny bit more (still with the .45ACP shell holder though, so not really apples to apples).

springer99 · December 9, 2011, 03:55 PM

Scotchman, sounds to me like your primer arm is in fine shape then. In that case I'll bet those UMC cases just have slightly smaller primer cups than your other cases, and will just require more "oomph" behind them to fully seat the primers. It's not uncommon to find slight differences between some mfgs. Sellier & Beliot cases seem to be the smallest to me; at least in 9mm and 45ACP.

ScotchMan · December 9, 2011, 04:02 PM

I guess I'll fire through what I have (for some reason single action fire has never had this issue, only double action) and really emphasize the upstroke when priming. Hopefully I can find a brand of primers that seats a little easier in the future.

dickttx · December 9, 2011, 04:48 PM

As far as I know there is no adjustment for the primer seater.
I believe I would contact Lee. They may just send you another large primer seater. Could be yours is a tad short, or the notch where it rests in the ram is a bit deep.
I have only seated about 7 or 8 thousand with my LCT, but have never had a problem. Some a little harder, some a little easier, but ALL have gone bang on the first trigger pull.

1SOW · December 9, 2011, 05:46 PM

In 9mm, FED, WIN and MAGTECH are the easiest to seat/softer. If you're using European primers, they are much harder.

The case itself can also contribute to the problem as said above. Try your primers in FED/WIN cases and see if they cause problems.

On my Lee turret , I pull the handle and sort of snap my wrist for the final primer seat. I seat them as far as they will go and never had a problem, but I use FED primers almost exclusively. In 9mm PPU cases have a little smaller and tighter primer hole than WIN or others.

Crankgrinder · December 9, 2011, 10:32 PM

I had a problem similar to this diff. caliber and all but same concept. Some of my primers were exceptionaly hard to seat and i had to go-rilla the press lever to get it to go in like i felt it should have if not they would not seat flush or below. This was the routine until i began cleaning all of the primer pockets with the little reamer tool that Lee provided me with in the kit i bought. after that no more problems.

cheezhed · December 10, 2011, 03:09 AM

Do you clean the primer pockets? At one time I never did and every once in a while I would get a round that would not fire now I clean them every time and I find that it is much easier to get the primers below flush,I have no misfires and the reason that I changed my habits is that I had a primer go off as I tried to seat it into a very dirty pocket. This scared the snot out of me. I clean while I watch TV and can do about 300 cases an hour.

wingman · December 10, 2011, 12:17 PM

Primer arm problem or brass and my first guess would be brass,not a big fan of Remington brass, a redding primer pocket uniformer is a great tool don't need it much on pistol but certainly on rifle brass. It levels the pocket and cleans it up.

Lost Sheep · December 10, 2011, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dickttx

As far as I know there is no adjustment for the primer seater.
I believe I would contact Lee. (truncated for brevity)

Dickttx is right. All those who blame the brass apparantly did not read your posts closely. Your observations clear the brass, though all brass does benefit from having their primer pockets made uniform and a dirty primer pocket can affect both seating and ignition.

I had a problem with a small primer arm, then broke it while trying to fix it. Lee sent me a new one based on my phone call at no charge for the arm or for the mailing. (Actuallly, the Factory Sales, which is an independent retailer.)

This was less than a week after purchase, so the timing may have had something to do with the no questions asked thing, but I recommend calling no matter how old the primer arm is.

Lost Sheep

David Bachelder · December 10, 2011, 02:21 PM

I have a Remington .243 (Model 788) bolt action. It will not chamber shells with proud primers. They must be below the case head to cycle properly.

Sport45 · December 10, 2011, 08:54 PM

I'd try another shell holder. It sounds like the one have may be allowing the case to rise when you seat the primer. Grab the shell holder out of your .308 or .30-06 die set and give it a try.

What's the number on the one you're using? If it's a Lee shell holder I believe it should be a 2.

wwmkwood · December 12, 2011, 09:46 AM

Any way some of those "range pick ups" may be military crimped? I found a bunch of old military surplus at my local range in 9mm .45 and 38spl. I think some LE may be using it for practice. It was all crimped.

With that said, I would look at the shell holder

savagelover · December 12, 2011, 10:02 AM

I read all of the above post and did not see which brand of primers you were using..Or maybe I over looked it.Anyway I have found that the CCI primers will sometimes seat harder than any others.So if these are what your using,try another brand if you can get some.Maybe borrow afew from someone to try..I doubt there is anything wrong with the primer arm...

azphx55 · December 12, 2011, 06:30 PM

I've had very similar problems. I'm also using the Classic Turret and factory loads all work fine.

Changing to Federal primers dropped the percentage that don't fire first time from around 30% to about 5%, but that's still too many for a match.

Changing to small primer brass made the problem go away, but isn't really a good solution because I have under 200 rounds of small primer brass and buckets full of "normal". I color all of my SP brass both so that I can tell it apart and so people who pick up strays are more likely to take a closer look.

Cleaning pockets seems to help, but I'm not convinced. There may be some experimenter bias caused by the fact that I hate cleaning pockets.

My next step is to sort by headstamp and see if I can identify a particular manufacturer. I think I have mostly Magtech and UMC.

I guess I'll do a more systematic comparison between clean and dirty pockets at the same time.

dickttx · December 12, 2011, 06:40 PM

I would talk to Lee about this. As stated in my post #11, above, I have NEVER had a problem seating or firing, either small or large primers.
I only use CCI primers, so that is all I can speak to.
In .45 I load Winchester, R-P, Starline, PMC, and mixed GI (1965/1970 WCC).
In 9mm (small primers) I load Win, FC and R-P.
I do load the same brand of brass in batches of 100.

hk33ka1 · December 13, 2011, 12:40 AM

I would second the recommendation to try another shellholder.

Using standard press shellholders in my RCBS hand primer, the RCBS .308 holder allowed the primers to seat deeper than the Lee #2 did.

azphx55 · January 3, 2012, 01:19 PM

I finally got back to the range yesterday with 100 rounds loaded with a new RCBS shell holder and 50 that I loaded before it arrived, but sorted to use only my most prevalent brass (Magtech).

The Magtech brass failed at about the same rate I've been experiencing. I didn't actually count once it became clear that using all Magtech wasn't going to be a solution.

Out of the first 10 round magazine using the new shell holder, 2 had to be hit twice in order to fire, so I gave up on that too. Thinking back, though, I think those were the ONLY two misfires I had from that batch, so it may be at least a partial solution. I like the RCBS holder, so I'll keep using it, anyway and will collect more data.

I'm still thinking I'll end up changing my trigger spring.

December 9, 2011, 01:48 PM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Are they below flush, and have your loads exhibited any issues associated with the primers? If the answer are yes, no, then don't worry about it. I've never paid any attention to how deep my primers seat. I push them until they stop and then give the handle a little extra shove, wherever they end up has worked 100% so far. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

December 9, 2011, 02:13 PM	#4
ScotchMan Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 1,368	I never did either until I got a new gun that wouldn't fire my reloads consistently. After correcting another issue with the reloads, and replacing the hammer spring on the gun, I am now confident the primer depth is the issue. I can fire factory loads fine, and I cherry picked some reloads with better-than-average depth and they fired as well. But my average reloads have about a 70% failure rate on the first strike; I got one load that I hit 10 times and it would not fire, it had a crater-sized strike mark in the primer. I can seat them "with authority", and they are still not as deep as my small primer-primed reloads that I don't think about. While I could probably escape the issue by doing this, I am hoping to find a mechanical solution where I can continue priming "hard enough" and have them seat as deeply as my other calibers. I am using Winchester primers. I could try another manufacturer too I suppose. __________________ Everyday Loadout NRA Instructor NRA Member

December 9, 2011, 02:40 PM	#6
BerettaPx4 Junior Member Join Date: November 27, 2011 Posts: 7	Hello Scotchman It might help if you use a primer pocket reamer to size the pockets. Some of the factory ammo has pockets that have been swedged slightly. This slight swedge at the beginning of the pocket can make re-priming difficult. Any problem that I have had with inserting primers, was solved by using a pocket reamer. regards Ed JMHO, but from my experience working in the gun industry, it is not safe to use cartridges with high primers in an automatic firearm. It can cause a possible "slam fire". You might get away with it for awhile, but it's like playing Russian roulette. It only takes once. Last edited by BerettaPx4; December 9, 2011 at 02:47 PM.

December 9, 2011, 02:58 PM	#8
ScotchMan Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 1,368	The majority of my cases are from a box of 250 Remington UMC I purchased some time ago and have been fired once. The rest are range pickups. Certainly some of the cases seem to require less effort to seat the primer, but I believe I can get any of them deep enough if I push really hard. I have some Federal cases from a box of American Eagle I just bought to troubleshoot the above issue, also once-fired (by me). I will use them to troubleshoot once I get down to the bench again, but the truth is I will continue using mixed cases like I have with my other calibers. Is it possible a different brand of primers might seat a little easier in this particular press with these particular cases? The primer ram does come up VERY slightly above the top of the shellholder. However my small primer ram comes up a tiny bit more (still with the .45ACP shell holder though, so not really apples to apples). __________________ Everyday Loadout NRA Instructor NRA Member

December 9, 2011, 04:02 PM	#10
ScotchMan Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 1,368	I guess I'll fire through what I have (for some reason single action fire has never had this issue, only double action) and really emphasize the upstroke when priming. Hopefully I can find a brand of primers that seats a little easier in the future. __________________ Everyday Loadout NRA Instructor NRA Member

December 9, 2011, 01:10 PM	#1
ScotchMan Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 1,368	Question about priming with Lee Classic Turret Hi all, I've been having an issue with my .45ACP reloads where the primers are not seating deeply enough. This is with the large primer arm on a Lee Classic Turret (I do not use the Safety Prime system). All of my small primer calibers (9mm, .38spl), seat nice and deep with no additional force needed. What can I do to get the press to seat large primers a bit more deeply? If I push REALLY hard on the ram, I can get them a little deeper but still not as nice as my small primers. I don't see any kind of adjustment I can do to the press. I am considering buying a new large primer seating arm (http://leeprecision.com/xcart/P-ARM-ASSM-LARGE.html) Is this a worthwhile step to try? Any other ideas? __________________ Everyday Loadout NRA Instructor NRA Member

December 9, 2011, 01:40 PM	#2
floydster Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2008 Posts: 472	Seat them till they won't go anymore, you will be good to go. Have loaded many thousands of 45 ACP on my Lee turret, never a problem. Seat them with authority is all you have to do. Tula/Wolf primers are a little harder to seat.

December 9, 2011, 02:30 PM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Sounds to me like a case problem. The primer arm is pretty foolproof. First thing I'd do is deprime one that seems incorrect, one that seems correct and measure the primers, primer holes and the anvil on the priming arm.

December 9, 2011, 02:44 PM	#7
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	If you lower the ram with the shell-holder emply and your large primer seater doesn't come flush with or above the shell-holder base , there might be a problem with that particular primer ram. Otherwise, there is no adjustment that I'm aware of. Did you try other cases?

December 9, 2011, 03:55 PM	#9
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	Scotchman, sounds to me like your primer arm is in fine shape then. In that case I'll bet those UMC cases just have slightly smaller primer cups than your other cases, and will just require more "oomph" behind them to fully seat the primers. It's not uncommon to find slight differences between some mfgs. Sellier & Beliot cases seem to be the smallest to me; at least in 9mm and 45ACP.

December 9, 2011, 04:48 PM	#11
dickttx Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Location: Fort Worth Posts: 500	As far as I know there is no adjustment for the primer seater. I believe I would contact Lee. They may just send you another large primer seater. Could be yours is a tad short, or the notch where it rests in the ram is a bit deep. I have only seated about 7 or 8 thousand with my LCT, but have never had a problem. Some a little harder, some a little easier, but ALL have gone bang on the first trigger pull. __________________ Education teaches you the rules, experience teaches you the exceptions (Plagiarized from Claude Clay)

December 9, 2011, 05:46 PM	#12
1SOW Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: South TX Posts: 269	In 9mm, FED, WIN and MAGTECH are the easiest to seat/softer. If you're using European primers, they are much harder. The case itself can also contribute to the problem as said above. Try your primers in FED/WIN cases and see if they cause problems. On my Lee turret , I pull the handle and sort of snap my wrist for the final primer seat. I seat them as far as they will go and never had a problem, but I use FED primers almost exclusively. In 9mm PPU cases have a little smaller and tighter primer hole than WIN or others.

December 9, 2011, 10:32 PM	#13
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	I had a problem similar to this diff. caliber and all but same concept. Some of my primers were exceptionaly hard to seat and i had to go-rilla the press lever to get it to go in like i felt it should have if not they would not seat flush or below. This was the routine until i began cleaning all of the primer pockets with the little reamer tool that Lee provided me with in the kit i bought. after that no more problems.

December 10, 2011, 03:09 AM	#14
cheezhed Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2007 Posts: 302	Do you clean the primer pockets? At one time I never did and every once in a while I would get a round that would not fire now I clean them every time and I find that it is much easier to get the primers below flush,I have no misfires and the reason that I changed my habits is that I had a primer go off as I tried to seat it into a very dirty pocket. This scared the snot out of me. I clean while I watch TV and can do about 300 cases an hour.

December 10, 2011, 12:17 PM	#15
wingman Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2002 Posts: 2,108	Primer arm problem or brass and my first guess would be brass,not a big fan of Remington brass, a redding primer pocket uniformer is a great tool don't need it much on pistol but certainly on rifle brass. It levels the pocket and cleans it up.

December 10, 2011, 02:21 PM	#17
David Bachelder Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2011 Location: Trinity, Texas Posts: 636	I have a Remington .243 (Model 788) bolt action. It will not chamber shells with proud primers. They must be below the case head to cycle properly.

December 10, 2011, 08:54 PM	#18
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I'd try another shell holder. It sounds like the one have may be allowing the case to rise when you seat the primer. Grab the shell holder out of your .308 or .30-06 die set and give it a try. What's the number on the one you're using? If it's a Lee shell holder I believe it should be a 2. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

December 12, 2011, 09:46 AM	#19
wwmkwood Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 110	Any way some of those "range pick ups" may be military crimped? I found a bunch of old military surplus at my local range in 9mm .45 and 38spl. I think some LE may be using it for practice. It was all crimped. With that said, I would look at the shell holder Last edited by wwmkwood; December 12, 2011 at 09:58 AM.

December 12, 2011, 10:02 AM	#20
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	I read all of the above post and did not see which brand of primers you were using..Or maybe I over looked it.Anyway I have found that the CCI primers will sometimes seat harder than any others.So if these are what your using,try another brand if you can get some.Maybe borrow afew from someone to try..I doubt there is anything wrong with the primer arm...

December 12, 2011, 06:30 PM	#21
azphx55 Member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 85	I've had very similar problems. I'm also using the Classic Turret and factory loads all work fine. Changing to Federal primers dropped the percentage that don't fire first time from around 30% to about 5%, but that's still too many for a match. Changing to small primer brass made the problem go away, but isn't really a good solution because I have under 200 rounds of small primer brass and buckets full of "normal". I color all of my SP brass both so that I can tell it apart and so people who pick up strays are more likely to take a closer look. Cleaning pockets seems to help, but I'm not convinced. There may be some experimenter bias caused by the fact that I hate cleaning pockets. My next step is to sort by headstamp and see if I can identify a particular manufacturer. I think I have mostly Magtech and UMC. I guess I'll do a more systematic comparison between clean and dirty pockets at the same time.

December 12, 2011, 06:40 PM	#22
dickttx Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Location: Fort Worth Posts: 500	I would talk to Lee about this. As stated in my post #11, above, I have NEVER had a problem seating or firing, either small or large primers. I only use CCI primers, so that is all I can speak to. In .45 I load Winchester, R-P, Starline, PMC, and mixed GI (1965/1970 WCC). In 9mm (small primers) I load Win, FC and R-P. I do load the same brand of brass in batches of 100. __________________ Education teaches you the rules, experience teaches you the exceptions (Plagiarized from Claude Clay)

December 13, 2011, 12:40 AM	#23
hk33ka1 Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2010 Posts: 275	I would second the recommendation to try another shellholder. Using standard press shellholders in my RCBS hand primer, the RCBS .308 holder allowed the primers to seat deeper than the Lee #2 did.

January 3, 2012, 01:19 PM	#24
azphx55 Member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 85	I finally got back to the range yesterday with 100 rounds loaded with a new RCBS shell holder and 50 that I loaded before it arrived, but sorted to use only my most prevalent brass (Magtech). The Magtech brass failed at about the same rate I've been experiencing. I didn't actually count once it became clear that using all Magtech wasn't going to be a solution. Out of the first 10 round magazine using the new shell holder, 2 had to be hit twice in order to fire, so I gave up on that too. Thinking back, though, I think those were the ONLY two misfires I had from that batch, so it may be at least a partial solution. I like the RCBS holder, so I'll keep using it, anyway and will collect more data. I'm still thinking I'll end up changing my trigger spring.