Receiver blank build - when does it become a rifle?

[Tom Servo]

That being said, if the receiver was shipped to the gun smithing school (FFL), then he worked on it at school, but did not take possession of it until it was a completed rifle, would that work?

That would still be considered manufacturing.

[dakota.potts]

Just to clarify, a receiver that is already considered a firearm would still be considered manufacturing to turn from an "other" into a rifle?

[Metal god]

From what I understand from your posts . This receiver will have a serial number from the start , yes ?? When you buy the receiver and the initial paper work is done . Why can't you just have them designate the receiver as a long gun ? It should from that point forward be a rifle , Yes ???

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Why can't you just have them designate the receiver as a long gun ?

Because it's not -- it's a bare receiver.

IMHO an FFL would have to be crazy to process a transfer for a bare receiver as a rifle. Suppose the transferee then goes home and builds it into a pistol or an SBR? The FFL would be screwed.

[Metal god]

IMHO an FFL would have to be crazy to process a transfer for a bare receiver as a rifle. Suppose the transferee then goes home and builds it into a pistol or an SBR? The FFL would be screwed.

Not here in CA . All AR lowers are sold as long guns . If the owner were to put a SBR upper or pistol upper on the lower . He would be in big trouble . The store that sold that complete or stripped lower has no liability . When the firearm was transferred and handed to the new owner it complied with all laws . What the owner did with the rifle after he left the store is completely out of the FFL dealer's hands . I'm sure many have tried to sue for things like that but I don't see a case .

[dakota.potts]

Federal law and determination on rifles contradicts when it's convenient.

For instance, a stripped Mauser receiver pulled from a once complete Mauser is a rifle. According to ATF, once it is a rifle, it is always a rifle and can not be built into a pistol. Putting a short barrel on it results in an SBR instead of a pistol.

However, try to buy that same receiver and it's an "other" firearm, not a long gun, so must be marked as other. It cannot be marked as a rifle on the form.

That's all my current understanding anyways. I'm always learning and I've been wrong before.

[Metal god]

The problem is I am 19, soon to be 20, and can't take possession of an "other firearm" from an FFL.

I have to assume that is because you can build an "other" into a pistol/handgun and you must be 21 to buy a pistol/handgun .

For instance, a stripped Mauser receiver pulled from a once complete Mauser is a rifle. According to ATF, once it is a rifle, it is always a rifle and can not be built into a pistol. Putting a short barrel on it results in an SBR instead of a pistol.

That is exactly my point . If you are going to build a rifle from this "other" stripped receiver and have to at some point document/designate it as a rifle . Why not do that right from the get go ? That way it starts out as a rifle and can't be changed . Now everywhere you go and everything you do with the receiver will be done as a rifle and all laws pertaining to rifles will apply .

I'm not saying that is law . Only that it seems reasonable . Now outside of CA maybe you can't register a receiver that has been assigned the "other" designation into a long gun all that easy . Here in CA It's really that simple . I've bought quite a few stripped lowers here in CA and they all were bought as long guns even though I can just as easy make them a pistol or SBR . I wouldn't , just saying . They were all bought as long guns and MUST be built as such .

I hope one of are FFL guys here can clarify this because as much as I feel what I'm saying is accurate . I really don't know all the Fed laws that address this issue .

EDIT:

Here in CA It's really that simple . I've bought quite a few stripped lowers here in CA and they all were bought as long guns

I just got to thinking that maybe the manufacture of the stripped lowers being shipped to CA designate them as long guns when serialized so they were NEVER anything but a long gun . This is where my knowledge on the issue starts to suffer . I'd always been told I must DROS the stripped lower here in CA as a long gun but was never told why . It could be that the manufacturer had already designated it as a long gun .

[dakota.potts]

You can't just designate a lower as a rifle because it doesn't have a rifled barrel of 16" or more and isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder. It can't be a rifle until it physically meets that criteria - or at least that's how I understand it.

The receiver age being 21 is often said it's because you can make a pistol out of it, but I don't think it has anything to do with that. The age to purchase a gun from an FFL used to be 21, but they lowered it for long guns. Anything that wasn't a long gun remained at 21

[Metal god]

I just started my DROS on this stripped lower last week . This is a pic of a copy of the DROS paper work . Again as my EDIT above states I'm not sure if the manufacturer designated the receiver as a long gun before shipping to CA . I do know that I own one stripped lower that is still stripped and is considered by law a rifle .

[Tom Servo]

The receiver age being 21 is often said it's because you can make a pistol out of it, but I don't think it has anything to do with that.

It doesn't. The ATF clarified this in 2009:

(...) firearm frames, receivers, and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns) are considered “Other Firearms.” They cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person under 21 years of age.

This clarified § 922(b)(1), which states:

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the
licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than
eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is
other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or
rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

Prior to that, it was common practice to mark receivers as "rifles" and sell them to people under 21.

Metal God, you might want to check with your dealer. I'm not sure about California law, but under federal law, that is *not* a rifle.

[Metal god]

firearm frames, receivers, and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns) are considered “Other Firearms.” They cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person under 21 years of age.

I'm not sure about California law, but under federal law, that is *not* a rifle.

I should add that here in CA you can not buy a stripped lower if you are under 21 . I just figured that was a left coast CA thing .

Is this just an age thing as for what the receivers designation is and when a person can buy it or is it flat out unlawful to designate a stripped receiver a long gun until the total length of the receiver and all parts connected to it is 30" or more ??

EDIT:

I was just informed that the CA DROS system only has two options for type of firearm - handgun and long gun . The "other designation does not exist in the CA system .

That to me does not sound right . How can a state just say ( well we don't want to put a third designation in are system so we don't recognize the Federal "other" requirement ) . Or is the "other" designation under Federal law an interpretation of the law and not actual written text in the law .

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Metal god

That to me does not sound right . How can a state just say ( well we don't want to put a third designation in are system so we don't recognize the Federal "other" requirement )

I was wondering the same thing.

[Metal god]

I started a Calguns thread to get answers on the CA side of this issue . Feel free to follow along

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1065716

As for the OP and this thread . I'm sure FL has the "other" option and it appears you're sol Sorry if I mislead anyone here .

[Aguila Blanca]

Metal god, it appears that the document you showed us is a CA-specific document. What does the 4473 for that same receiver call it? What I get out of your thread on Calguns is that there's a disconnect between the federal 4473 and the CA DROS form.

[Tom Servo]

I should add that here in CA you can not buy a stripped lower if you are under 21

That's actually in line with federal law.

I was just informed that the CA DROS system only has two options for type of firearm - handgun and long gun . The "other designation does not exist in the CA system .

Gene and some other folks on Calguns should be able to provide exact answers. It is odd that California law conflicts with federal law that way.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by dakota.potts

For instance, a stripped Mauser receiver pulled from a once complete Mauser is a rifle. According to ATF, once it is a rifle, it is always a rifle and can not be built into a pistol. Putting a short barrel on it results in an SBR instead of a pistol.

The catchphrase is best stated as "FIRST a rifle, always a rifle."

A pistol can be made into a rifle, which is why Mechtech C.C.U. Glock/1911 rifle uppers are legal, along with the Beretta Neos carbine kit (although it's widely thought that the Neos kit was discontinued because it can be easily assembled into an SBR, but I digress).

The issue with Mausers is that (almost?) every known Mauser receiver* arrived in the USA as part of a rifle, and proving otherwise is basically an impossible task given that the original Mauser company effectively ceased to exist in 1945, and many of their records have been lost.

Originally Posted by dakota.potts

You can't just designate a lower as a rifle because it doesn't have a rifled barrel of 16" or more and isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder.

Basically correct, although you forgot that it also must have an overall length of 26" or longer.

*[Edit to add footnote: I've assumed we're discussing Mauser rifles, not Mauser pistols such as the C96, 1910 series, and HSc.]

[peggysue]

If it legal (SIC) your state and you are not a fellon one can build a firearm from a 80% reciever. Only you can never sell it or give it away.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by peggysue

If it is leagle [sic] in your state and you are not a fellon [sic] one can build a firearm from a 80% reciever.

In the initial paragraph of this thread, the OP ruled this out due to the difficulty of properly forming and welding a G3 receiver flat.

IOW I believe he's well aware of the facts you brought up, but the issue is that he doesn't WANT to build a G3 receiver from an 80% flat, so he's seeking alternative options.

[Metal god]

Metal god, it appears that the document you showed us is a CA-specific document. What does the 4473 for that same receiver call it? What I get out of your thread on Calguns is that there's a disconnect between the federal 4473 and the CA DROS form.

Yes I believe all of that to be correct here in CA . My thread at Calguns is not getting the interest I hoped for . How ever it appears that that the FFL dealer checks the "other" box on the 4473 form and checks the rifle box on the separate CA dealers record of sale form ( DROS ) No one understands how CA can claim a stripped receiver can be designated as rifle because by legal definition it is not .

I would like to take the chance once again to apologize to the OP for the semi hi-jack of his thread . I will no longer post here and end with

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT STRIPPED AR LOWERS Please don't answer any of my questions or thoughts on this matter .

Thanks metal

[Tom Servo]

If it is leagle in your state and you are not a fellon one can build a firearm from a 80% reciever. Only you can never sell it or give it away.

That's not true. You can make your own personal firearm. You can even sell it.

The line is crossed if you are in the business of manufacturing for resale. That line is a bit fuzzy, but if it's only done once or twice, it's unlikely to trigger scrutiny.