Interesting point made in LTC class about 4473 - Page 2

Madcap_Magician · December 23, 2010, 12:27 PM

I'm surprised Dave told you that.

I wouldn't use the EXACT 4473, but having a form stating the gist of a 4473 for the buyer to fill out isn't necessarily a bad idea. You should at least record the full name of the person you sell a gun to, the date of the transfer, and the model and serial number sold.

I'm usually just fine selling to people who have permits to purchase or carry and nobody else.

vranasaurus · December 23, 2010, 12:53 PM

So let's say the ATF comes to your door asking about a gun you used to own?

Q: Where is the (make model, serial number) you bought from (dealer)?

A: I sold it.

Q: Who did you sell it to?

A: I don't remember.

After some more investigation they find out that you sold it to Joe smith and Joe Smith is a convicted felon.

Now let's say some Assistant US Attorney with way too much time on their hands charges you with a violation of 922(d)(1).

How exactly are they going to prove that you knew or had reasonable cause to believe that Mr. Smith was a convicted felon?

They would need testimony from the felon stating that he informed you that he was a convicted felon, testimony from people who told you that he was a convicted felon, or other evidence that you had knowledge of his firearm disability. Proving that someone had knowledge or reasonable cause to believe something is not an easy task.

Federal law imposes no duty to gather such information for FTF transfers. State law may require something more but if it does just comply. If state law had some assinine record keeping requirement I would probably just do the transfers through a dealer.

Not to mention if you keep detailed records and you do a decent number of FTF sales you may be keeping evidence that could later be used against you for engaging in the business of selling firearms without a license.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 23, 2010, 01:09 PM

I might be a nervous guy but I would be uneasy about selling to someone that I didn't have some info for.

A friend of mine was going to sell a Sigma at the show or trade it. On the line to get in, some guy stops him and asks if he wants to sell it for a better price than it would normal get. My buddy says : Sure - then chortles about the price.

Given the history of some sales - I would not like to have that gun show up at a crime with me being the last owner.

I usually trade with an FFL. Maybe I could make more on a private sale but unless it was someone I really know, I'll pass. I don't need to contribute to the Time To Crime stats that the antigun criminologists collect.

The money isn't that important.

**Aguila Blanca** · December 23, 2010, 04:50 PM

If a buyer can show me an in-state handgun permit with his photo on it (or with a name that matches his drivers´ license that has a photo on it), he´s not a prohibited person. If the police later show up and ask, I can truthfully say that I satisfied myself that the buyer was not a prohibited person.

That´s ALL the law requires (except in a few benighted states).

December 23, 2010, 01:09 PM	#28
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I might be a nervous guy but I would be uneasy about selling to someone that I didn't have some info for. A friend of mine was going to sell a Sigma at the show or trade it. On the line to get in, some guy stops him and asks if he wants to sell it for a better price than it would normal get. My buddy says : Sure - then chortles about the price. Given the history of some sales - I would not like to have that gun show up at a crime with me being the last owner. I usually trade with an FFL. Maybe I could make more on a private sale but unless it was someone I really know, I'll pass. I don't need to contribute to the Time To Crime stats that the antigun criminologists collect. The money isn't that important. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 23, 2010, 12:27 PM	#26
Madcap_Magician Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2009 Location: MN Posts: 668	I'm surprised Dave told you that. I wouldn't use the EXACT 4473, but having a form stating the gist of a 4473 for the buyer to fill out isn't necessarily a bad idea. You should at least record the full name of the person you sell a gun to, the date of the transfer, and the model and serial number sold. I'm usually just fine selling to people who have permits to purchase or carry and nobody else.

December 23, 2010, 12:53 PM	#27
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	So let's say the ATF comes to your door asking about a gun you used to own? Q: Where is the (make model, serial number) you bought from (dealer)? A: I sold it. Q: Who did you sell it to? A: I don't remember. After some more investigation they find out that you sold it to Joe smith and Joe Smith is a convicted felon. Now let's say some Assistant US Attorney with way too much time on their hands charges you with a violation of 922(d)(1). How exactly are they going to prove that you knew or had reasonable cause to believe that Mr. Smith was a convicted felon? They would need testimony from the felon stating that he informed you that he was a convicted felon, testimony from people who told you that he was a convicted felon, or other evidence that you had knowledge of his firearm disability. Proving that someone had knowledge or reasonable cause to believe something is not an easy task. Federal law imposes no duty to gather such information for FTF transfers. State law may require something more but if it does just comply. If state law had some assinine record keeping requirement I would probably just do the transfers through a dealer. Not to mention if you keep detailed records and you do a decent number of FTF sales you may be keeping evidence that could later be used against you for engaging in the business of selling firearms without a license.

December 23, 2010, 04:50 PM	#29
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	If a buyer can show me an in-state handgun permit with his photo on it (or with a name that matches his drivers´ license that has a photo on it), he´s not a prohibited person. If the police later show up and ask, I can truthfully say that I satisfied myself that the buyer was not a prohibited person. That´s ALL the law requires (except in a few benighted states).