Reflections on the L&CR Forum

Al Norris · December 2, 2013, 12:53 AM

We are rapidly approaching the 5 year mark, when this, the Law & Civil Rights forum, opened to the public on TFL. Even though this opening post will be rather long, if you decide to comment, you would be well advised to read this whole post.

OK, so its time for reflection.

A little over 6 years ago, life in the old Legal and Political (L&P) forum, here at TFL, got very shrill in the (prolonged) run-up to the 2008 elections. It had gotten so bad, that by the summer of 2008, Dave (TheBluesMan) and I were ejecting folks left and right; The Staff at TFL wouldn't step foot in the L&P. The rancor was spilling over into the other forums at TFL.

After some discussion and mutual agreement with the rest of TFL Staff, Dave and I closed that forum. The reasons were many. But a brief explanation of the major problems with the L&P forum were:

A general lack of respect of another members opinion(s).
A general intention to divert a threads discussion.
1. Type 1: Some people appear to pick a small statement out of someone's response, blow it out of proportion and/or hammer away at it. Others, seem to pile on (for or against), thus taking the thread off topic.
2. Type 2: Some people appear to intentionally insert comments designed to inflame a certain segment of the membership.
3. Type 3: Some people appear to portray the very worst characteristics they can find about another individual (politician/candidate for office/another member). This is generally done for the specific purpose of rabble rousing. non-exclusive examples:
  1. Implying (or actually calling) someone who has a different perspective, a troll.
  2. Implying that the subject or member is an Islamo-Fascist.
  3. Implying that the subject or member is a Nazi.
A general lapse into childish behavior: i.e. Not posting as an adult.

All of the above reasons for closing the L&P have resurfaced. Granted, it is nowhere near as shrill as it was in the L&P, still, the intensity level has gone up.

All of the moderators, and many of our members, have worked hard to make the L&CR forum the premiere discussion forum at TFL. I think it safe to say that to an extent, we have all succeeded. But that success is trivial if we allow certain destructive influences to continue in the manner it has been of late.

At this point, I would invite everyone to review the rules (they have always been stickied towards the top of this forums index) for this subforum, as I have just modified them: L&CR Forum Rules | Read First. If you are new to this forum or haven't bothered to read that post, I urge you to do so now. Your active participation in L&CR is dependent upon you understanding the objectives of our owner and founder (p. 2) and the newly highlighted restrictions.

In sum, no more invectives; No more immature behavior; No more Godwin's Law violations. Don't understand these terms? Google them.

dakota.potts · December 2, 2013, 03:54 AM

After taking some time to read through L&P, I must say I notice a marked difference between where it was at when it shut down and where we're at now. Anything mildly political tends to get out of hand but I like to think our successes are do to strong (yet not heavy-handed) moderator interaction. It also seems the attitude of posters has shifted, in some way, for the better.

When I first got into guns and shooting, I was continually amazed at how nice and singer 98% of gun owners and shooters were. Even the big burly guys you'd see holding an AR-15 on TV as a portrayal of evil just ended up being some of the nicest people I'd met. That really made a difference in accepting the hobby, for myself. It's great that this site has a strong focus on being that 98% and being welcoming, polite people even to those who disagree.

Unfortunately, it's the other 2% that stick because they're scary. So we have to make up for that.

You can have your mod hat back now, Mr. Norris

Just the way I see things.

SamNavy · December 2, 2013, 08:51 PM

If I added up all the forums I belong to (starting with my very first one "RangerPowerSports"), I wouldn't be surprised to see the number top 100.

After reading tens of thousands of threads and typing at least 20,000 posts all across the internet on topics ranging from tropical fish selection, treehouse construction, tire choice, mustache wax, guns, cars, sports, etc... I can honestly say that the L&CR subforum at TFL has proven more useful to me in everyday life than all of the others combined.

The average user (me), certainly doesn't see all the work that goes into keeping it civil (I wasn't around for the L&P), but I know the occasional rant-that-quickly-turns-into-a-closed-thread isn't a bad thing at all. What would be a bad thing though, would be to completely deny or censor that current anti-gun politics is being near wholly driven by a very small group of well funded, powerful, and influential individuals who lean left-of-spectrum.

A huge part of their playbook is to try and get us to fight ourselves instead of them... "the best trick the devil ever played..." you know the rest. In other words, it would play directly into "their" hands if TFL would completely sensor discussion of "them"... and I think the mods here do a superior job of allowing just enough "discussion" so we never forget why/who/what we're up against, while simultaneously not turning this place into THE BLAZE.

Koda94 · December 3, 2013, 01:28 AM

one of the main reasons I joined TFL was to hear different perspectives from gun owners. As an individual in anytown America I know a total of 3 gun owners that are close friends. I guess without the L&CR forum I can go back to years of discussion in the darkness of my limited knowledge base on the subject of what is perhaps the one topic that creates the foundation of keeping our 2A freedom alive. All other things being equal, this is the most important forum topic gun owners can be part of. Some of the things I have learned, or become aware of here in this forum I have been able to articulate in private conversations on my own turf.

Last but not least, the moderation I've seen on this forum IS making a difference in the gun community in America. The very nature of owning and/or carrying a gun means putting your attitude in check and taking the higher road. Its a positive experience here to participate in this forum where the moderation assures the civility.

raimius · December 3, 2013, 07:27 PM

I've been around about as long as the L&CR forum has been here, and I have to say it is by far the best sub-forum I visit on a regular basis. So, many kudos to the mods.
Also, many thanks to the legal minds around here. I've learned a lot! You guys can take a complex topic and boil it down to a level most people can grasp, without losing the finer points, and I really appreciate that.

I have also noticed a slight uptick in political ranting. For the most part, the mods seem to keep it in relative check.

If you need to bring the "ban hammer" down a little more often or give people suspensions, so be it. The forum is worth having.

Baba Louie · December 3, 2013, 08:46 PM

Quote:

OK, so its time for reflection.

While I loved the old L&P forum it was a needlessly hot 2 or 3 way range in there from time to time. Since the CHANGE, L&CR speaks highly of TFLs staff redirecting focus and maintaining that focus.

Sometimes you do need to cull the herd a bit to keep it healthy. A sad truth.

I sure wouldn't aim to PO the owner/founder. He who has lawyers, guns AND money, not to mention his TV debating skills... (I understand he can shoot a little too.

)

MTT TL · December 5, 2013, 07:32 PM

Looking forward to stringent enforcement of the rules....

jimpeel · December 6, 2013, 04:12 AM

There was a time in L&P when no matter how contentious the subject matter everyone acted as gentlemen and gentleladies. THIS would be a good example. There was no name calling, no disrespect, or invective. Everyone stated their case in a mostly reasonable and respectful manner. It was only when certain vitriolic members showed up and started rabble rousing, acting disrespectfully, and agitating that L&P started the downhill slide.

orangello · December 6, 2013, 06:04 PM

I was not around for the L & P forum. I have made a few posts in the current L&CR forum. While it is interesting to read the thread titles and some of the threads in the L&CR forum, it is not a place I feel comfortable speaking my mind. Some of the threads read as if and probably are discussions between attorneys; while such discussions may make for a real page turner in a scholarly journal for attorneys and educators in the legal field, they are less meaningful or worthwhile for the "common man" reader like myself.

As an accounting professional with a MPA and some years of varied experience in different areas of accounting, I can read the research published by accounting professors in such scholarly publications as Journal of Accounting Research or Journal of Accounting and Public Policy and understand what these eggheads are talking about. Honestly though, I would MUCH rather read about the same topic in a magazine for the common practitioner like the Journal of Accountancy that presents much the same information in a more easily read and understood (and even applied) format.

The Firing Line does have an excellent Black Powder and Cowboy action section and well-attended Classifieds section that make it far and away worth a daily visit, and the L&CR section is worth a quick stop if for no other reason than to find amusement in the scholarly/practitioner review of legal situations that affect not only legal practitioners and scholars but also their potential clients. Keep up the good work.

Al Norris · December 6, 2013, 07:56 PM

Law and Civil Rights is, by its very nature, both common and technical law. So yeah, it may be hard to understand at times.

Orangello, when commenting upon the cases I follow, I do my best to make it as understandable to the common person as I can. After all, I am not an attorney or any kind of legal scholar.

What I know (and sometimes it's only what I think I know), is based upon watching court cases (and reading the pleadings) for the last 5 years. Even this is only limited to the developing laws in regards to firearms and our rights.

Unfortunately, it's a rather technical field and one must learn the jargon in order to understand. So if I'm ever not clear, please speak up!

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangello

Some of the threads read as if and probably are discussions between attorneys; while such discussions may make for a real page turner in a scholarly journal for attorneys and educators in the legal field, they are less meaningful or worthwhile for the "common man" reader like myself.

While it may be understandable, to anyone who doesn't follow the many discussions here, I assure you that many of these discussions can have an affect upon your daily life. Especially if you are a gun-owner. It's the consequences of not understanding the laws, not just as they are written, but as they are interpreted by the courts, that can and do get some of us in trouble.

And that is why many of the discussions are so technical.

WeedWacker · December 10, 2013, 04:13 AM

Quote:

While it may be understandable, to anyone who doesn't follow the many discussions here, I assure you that many of these discussions can have an affect upon your daily life. Especially if you are a gun-owner. It's the consequences of not understanding the laws, not just as they are written, but as they are interpreted by the courts, that can and do get some of us in trouble.

And that is why many of the discussions are so technical.

I was excoriated by another member when I did not use a term in congruence with a legal definition. So while some of these "technical discussions" may "affect upon [our] daily [lives]" it would do well to include those of us less technically versed in legal vernacular. It's gotten better since the beginning of L&CR, but as such it had almost become an exclusionary discussion board for gun-owning lawyers.

MTT TL · December 10, 2013, 08:50 AM

Quote:

It's gotten better since the beginning of L&CR, but as such it had almost become an exclusionary discussion board for gun-owning lawyers.

Except for the occasional question this is mostly true and sometimes a bit amusing however; it does make for some enlightening conversation.

zukiphile · December 10, 2013, 09:36 AM

Al, I note that your post does not invite comment, but that you've left the thread open posting. If you did not intend to have people comment, please indicate that.

I have found you consistently courteous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WW

It's gotten better since the beginning of L&CR, but as such it had almost become an exclusionary discussion board for gun-owning lawyers.

The upside to that is a pretty good population of attorneys who will explain points that laymen might not find intuitive, all for free.

If you find yourself locked out by a barricade of jargon, a request to explain that jargon should be well received. You may need patience to work through it, and it helps to approach such a matter in two separate steps, 1) understand what is being offered, and only then 2) voice any disagreement you may have with it. Voicing your disagreement while simultaneously getting your hands around a point may frustrate a writer who is earnestly attempting an explanation.

If you are belittled for asking or misunderstanding a point, that's a problem, but not yours.

Al Norris · December 10, 2013, 11:32 AM

Zukiphile, If I had not intended discussion, the thread would have been stickied and closed. Leaving the thread open, invites discussion.

This thread acts as an attitude check, in that what I wrote reflects what we mods are seeing. What the members write, reflects on what they are or have been seeing.

While entirely off topic, the threads serves both sides, to ensure that the forum is maintaining the goals as stated in the "Read Me First" sticky (which contains the goals and rules for this forum).

Gaerek · December 10, 2013, 12:15 PM

I don't post a lot in L&CR, mainly because I have limited knowledge of Laws and the Constitution, at least, limited compared to many of the posters here. Having said that, I have never felt excluded from the conversation here. A lot of conversations are very technical in nature, but that's the nature of the beast. A single word change in a 5 page law can dramatically change the meaning of the law. And when you go from actual laws as they are written, into case law, it gets even more technical.

And example, I had recently posted a question on the commerce clause as it was written, because it seemed that the meaning of it was something different than how it was being used. However, case law shows us that legally it does mean something completely different than how it appears to be written.

Having said that, I believe I've gotten more useful information out of this forum than any other. I have a far better understanding of gun laws and their implications than before I started posting/reading TFL. And I had thought I had a good understanding then!

I was not here for the old forum, and I truly hope we don't have to resort to closing it because of some bad eggs who can't read the rules. I was originally critical of what I believed was heavy handed moderation on this website. I've posted on dozens of gun forums. Yet, this is the one I keep coming back to, and keep posting on. And I believe that same moderation is part of the reason. It really helps keep the topics on topic, and keeps people accountable for their own actions/posts. So having said that, if we need heavier handed moderation here, then I'm all for it. This, at least for me, is probably the most useful forum here at TFL. It'd be a shame if it went away.

doofus47 · December 11, 2013, 12:52 PM

I"m not a lawyer, and I do grope through the language a bit, but it's an informative forum that has been very productive for me. I hit this sub-forum every time I come to TFL.
I mostly have questions, or to research topics to more effectively debate, or to give the status of local gun issues in my state. Or to point out how gun control marketing happens.

I see myself as a representative sample of "the normal TFL" reader who takes the time to research 2a topics in depth.
edit to add opinion:
personally, i don't see too much disrespect, but i'm not a moderator.

**Tom Servo** · December 11, 2013, 01:33 PM

Quote:

personally, i don't see too much disrespect, but i'm not a moderator.

We try our best to keep that stuff out of view. Members perform a vital service by reporting posts that break the rules.

It's a fine balance we keep here. These issues are worth discussing, but politics gets the hackles up.

December 2, 2013, 12:53 AM	#1
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Reflections on the L&CR Forum We are rapidly approaching the 5 year mark, when this, the Law & Civil Rights forum, opened to the public on TFL. Even though this opening post will be rather long, if you decide to comment, you would be well advised to read this whole post. OK, so its time for reflection. A little over 6 years ago, life in the old Legal and Political (L&P) forum, here at TFL, got very shrill in the (prolonged) run-up to the 2008 elections. It had gotten so bad, that by the summer of 2008, Dave (TheBluesMan) and I were ejecting folks left and right; The Staff at TFL wouldn't step foot in the L&P. The rancor was spilling over into the other forums at TFL. After some discussion and mutual agreement with the rest of TFL Staff, Dave and I closed that forum. The reasons were many. But a brief explanation of the major problems with the L&P forum were: A general lack of respect of another members opinion(s). A general intention to divert a threads discussion. Type 1: Some people appear to pick a small statement out of someone's response, blow it out of proportion and/or hammer away at it. Others, seem to pile on (for or against), thus taking the thread off topic. Type 2: Some people appear to intentionally insert comments designed to inflame a certain segment of the membership. Type 3: Some people appear to portray the very worst characteristics they can find about another individual (politician/candidate for office/another member). This is generally done for the specific purpose of rabble rousing. non-exclusive examples: Implying (or actually calling) someone who has a different perspective, a troll. Implying that the subject or member is an Islamo-Fascist. Implying that the subject or member is a Nazi. A general lapse into childish behavior: i.e. Not posting as an adult. All of the above reasons for closing the L&P have resurfaced. Granted, it is nowhere near as shrill as it was in the L&P, still, the intensity level has gone up. All of the moderators, and many of our members, have worked hard to make the L&CR forum the premiere discussion forum at TFL. I think it safe to say that to an extent, we have all succeeded. But that success is trivial if we allow certain destructive influences to continue in the manner it has been of late. At this point, I would invite everyone to review the rules (they have always been stickied towards the top of this forums index) for this subforum, as I have just modified them: L&CR Forum Rules \| Read First. If you are new to this forum or haven't bothered to read that post, I urge you to do so now. Your active participation in L&CR is dependent upon you understanding the objectives of our owner and founder (p. 2) and the newly highlighted restrictions. In sum, no more invectives; No more immature behavior; No more Godwin's Law violations. Don't understand these terms? Google them.

December 2, 2013, 03:54 AM	#2
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	After taking some time to read through L&P, I must say I notice a marked difference between where it was at when it shut down and where we're at now. Anything mildly political tends to get out of hand but I like to think our successes are do to strong (yet not heavy-handed) moderator interaction. It also seems the attitude of posters has shifted, in some way, for the better. When I first got into guns and shooting, I was continually amazed at how nice and singer 98% of gun owners and shooters were. Even the big burly guys you'd see holding an AR-15 on TV as a portrayal of evil just ended up being some of the nicest people I'd met. That really made a difference in accepting the hobby, for myself. It's great that this site has a strong focus on being that 98% and being welcoming, polite people even to those who disagree. Unfortunately, it's the other 2% that stick because they're scary. So we have to make up for that. You can have your mod hat back now, Mr. Norris Just the way I see things. __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

December 3, 2013, 01:28 AM	#4
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	one of the main reasons I joined TFL was to hear different perspectives from gun owners. As an individual in anytown America I know a total of 3 gun owners that are close friends. I guess without the L&CR forum I can go back to years of discussion in the darkness of my limited knowledge base on the subject of what is perhaps the one topic that creates the foundation of keeping our 2A freedom alive. All other things being equal, this is the most important forum topic gun owners can be part of. Some of the things I have learned, or become aware of here in this forum I have been able to articulate in private conversations on my own turf. Last but not least, the moderation I've seen on this forum IS making a difference in the gun community in America. The very nature of owning and/or carrying a gun means putting your attitude in check and taking the higher road. Its a positive experience here to participate in this forum where the moderation assures the civility. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

December 5, 2013, 07:32 PM	#7
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	Looking forward to stringent enforcement of the rules.... __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

December 6, 2013, 04:12 AM	#8
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	There was a time in L&P when no matter how contentious the subject matter everyone acted as gentlemen and gentleladies. THIS would be a good example. There was no name calling, no disrespect, or invective. Everyone stated their case in a mostly reasonable and respectful manner. It was only when certain vitriolic members showed up and started rabble rousing, acting disrespectfully, and agitating that L&P started the downhill slide. __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

December 2, 2013, 08:51 PM	#3
SamNavy Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2011 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 433	If I added up all the forums I belong to (starting with my very first one "RangerPowerSports"), I wouldn't be surprised to see the number top 100. After reading tens of thousands of threads and typing at least 20,000 posts all across the internet on topics ranging from tropical fish selection, treehouse construction, tire choice, mustache wax, guns, cars, sports, etc... I can honestly say that the L&CR subforum at TFL has proven more useful to me in everyday life than all of the others combined. The average user (me), certainly doesn't see all the work that goes into keeping it civil (I wasn't around for the L&P), but I know the occasional rant-that-quickly-turns-into-a-closed-thread isn't a bad thing at all. What would be a bad thing though, would be to completely deny or censor that current anti-gun politics is being near wholly driven by a very small group of well funded, powerful, and influential individuals who lean left-of-spectrum. A huge part of their playbook is to try and get us to fight ourselves instead of them... "the best trick the devil ever played..." you know the rest. In other words, it would play directly into "their" hands if TFL would completely sensor discussion of "them"... and I think the mods here do a superior job of allowing just enough "discussion" so we never forget why/who/what we're up against, while simultaneously not turning this place into THE BLAZE.

December 3, 2013, 07:27 PM	#5
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	I've been around about as long as the L&CR forum has been here, and I have to say it is by far the best sub-forum I visit on a regular basis. So, many kudos to the mods. Also, many thanks to the legal minds around here. I've learned a lot! You guys can take a complex topic and boil it down to a level most people can grasp, without losing the finer points, and I really appreciate that. I have also noticed a slight uptick in political ranting. For the most part, the mods seem to keep it in relative check. If you need to bring the "ban hammer" down a little more often or give people suspensions, so be it. The forum is worth having.

December 6, 2013, 06:04 PM	#9
orangello Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 566	I was not around for the L & P forum. I have made a few posts in the current L&CR forum. While it is interesting to read the thread titles and some of the threads in the L&CR forum, it is not a place I feel comfortable speaking my mind. Some of the threads read as if and probably are discussions between attorneys; while such discussions may make for a real page turner in a scholarly journal for attorneys and educators in the legal field, they are less meaningful or worthwhile for the "common man" reader like myself. As an accounting professional with a MPA and some years of varied experience in different areas of accounting, I can read the research published by accounting professors in such scholarly publications as Journal of Accounting Research or Journal of Accounting and Public Policy and understand what these eggheads are talking about. Honestly though, I would MUCH rather read about the same topic in a magazine for the common practitioner like the Journal of Accountancy that presents much the same information in a more easily read and understood (and even applied) format. The Firing Line does have an excellent Black Powder and Cowboy action section and well-attended Classifieds section that make it far and away worth a daily visit, and the L&CR section is worth a quick stop if for no other reason than to find amusement in the scholarly/practitioner review of legal situations that affect not only legal practitioners and scholars but also their potential clients. Keep up the good work.

December 10, 2013, 11:32 AM	#14
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Zukiphile, If I had not intended discussion, the thread would have been stickied and closed. Leaving the thread open, invites discussion. This thread acts as an attitude check, in that what I wrote reflects what we mods are seeing. What the members write, reflects on what they are or have been seeing. While entirely off topic, the threads serves both sides, to ensure that the forum is maintaining the goals as stated in the "Read Me First" sticky (which contains the goals and rules for this forum).

December 10, 2013, 12:15 PM	#15
Gaerek Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 939	I don't post a lot in L&CR, mainly because I have limited knowledge of Laws and the Constitution, at least, limited compared to many of the posters here. Having said that, I have never felt excluded from the conversation here. A lot of conversations are very technical in nature, but that's the nature of the beast. A single word change in a 5 page law can dramatically change the meaning of the law. And when you go from actual laws as they are written, into case law, it gets even more technical. And example, I had recently posted a question on the commerce clause as it was written, because it seemed that the meaning of it was something different than how it was being used. However, case law shows us that legally it does mean something completely different than how it appears to be written. Having said that, I believe I've gotten more useful information out of this forum than any other. I have a far better understanding of gun laws and their implications than before I started posting/reading TFL. And I had thought I had a good understanding then! I was not here for the old forum, and I truly hope we don't have to resort to closing it because of some bad eggs who can't read the rules. I was originally critical of what I believed was heavy handed moderation on this website. I've posted on dozens of gun forums. Yet, this is the one I keep coming back to, and keep posting on. And I believe that same moderation is part of the reason. It really helps keep the topics on topic, and keeps people accountable for their own actions/posts. So having said that, if we need heavier handed moderation here, then I'm all for it. This, at least for me, is probably the most useful forum here at TFL. It'd be a shame if it went away.

December 11, 2013, 12:52 PM	#16
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	I"m not a lawyer, and I do grope through the language a bit, but it's an informative forum that has been very productive for me. I hit this sub-forum every time I come to TFL. I mostly have questions, or to research topics to more effectively debate, or to give the status of local gun issues in my state. Or to point out how gun control marketing happens. I see myself as a representative sample of "the normal TFL" reader who takes the time to research 2a topics in depth. edit to add opinion: personally, i don't see too much disrespect, but i'm not a moderator. __________________ I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time.