223 AR loading prob

b00 · June 5, 2007, 09:13 PM

Hello
I have loaded thousands of 223s for my AR on my faithful rockchucker. Never ever had a jam or a problem. I recently switched to a hornady locknload press. Upon loading some ammo with the die set that I always use (rcbs 223), some rounds would not chamber all the way and would get stuck. I tried a different die (forester size die) and had the same problem. The problem seems more prevalent with some brass than others. It is a genuine pain in the but because it stops up the rifle good. If I put the die back in the rockchucker and size the brass it works fine. The die on both presses hit the shell plate well. I have measured the shell plate on the hornady and it is .126, rockchucker .125. This does not seem like enough to cause this problem? Any suggestions? Would a small base die fix the problem.

rgitzlaff · June 5, 2007, 09:55 PM

Can you try switching shellholders? .001 might make a difference, though it doesn't sound likely. How many times has the brass been reloaded? It might be work hardened from being sized too many times, in which case it'll tend to spring back more instead of size properly. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, all a press does is move the case up and down with a lot of force. Putting the same die on two different presses should yeild identical results if using the same shellholder. If your shellholders are not interchangeable, you could trying sanding off a couple thousandths from the one that is causing you trouble. Just my .02

mc223 · June 5, 2007, 10:47 PM

Is there some deflection of the shellplate when the die touches?

ear-ingun · June 6, 2007, 12:33 PM

I have had a similar problem. Solution was to carefully mill off about 0.002 from the shell holder (making the presumtion that this is not the progressive LNL). Then readjusting the die to size the case a little further down.

Since the holder is so hard a steel, you will need emmery cloth on a belt type sander such as knife makers use.

b00 · June 6, 2007, 04:14 PM

It is the lock N load that is the problem, which would make it more dificult to reduce the shell plate.

Slamfire · June 6, 2007, 04:29 PM

What you do not know is whether your sized cases are too long, too short, or too fat.

Go buy a Wilson type cartridge headspace gage and set up your dies based on the sized case measurements.

This web site has good pictures and instructions on these type of gages.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm

Advice on grinding shell holders, etc, are a hit and miss proposition. You must have gages to measure what you are doing. The instructions you receive with sizing dies, on how to set them up, are useless.

Too fat a case, which I don't think you have, requires a cut chamber. The Wilson gage does not measure anything but length. I have paid Compass Lake about $40.00 to cut a barrel stub with their reamer. And cut the stub to headspace minimum. This cut chamber will tell me if my cases are too long or too fat.

Clark · June 7, 2007, 09:38 AM

The die is adjusted to bump the shell holder even when there is a case being sized?

If the die were adjusted when the forces were low, the press has compliance, and then the work of sizing a die is introduced, the brass may not get full length sized.

swmike · June 7, 2007, 10:34 AM

+1 on the Wilson Gauge. I had the same issue and invested in the gauge. I found that I was over-crimping some rounds and it was bulging the shoulder area.

I now check every finished round with a Wilson Cartridge Case Gauge. It is also good for checking sized brass for length. Those cases that need trimming are easy to spot.

b00 · June 7, 2007, 02:15 PM

No the die is contacting the shell holder well even with the case in it. The only conclusion that I have been able to come up with from answers on here and from rcbs is that .002 is enough to prevent the round from chambering. I also beleive that as someone else mentioned that the work hardening of the brass is exagerating the problem because it does seem more prevalent on brass that has been fired more.

I figure I have 2 options - machine .002 off of the bottom of the die or buy small base dies which rcbs claims are .001 -.002 smaller.

Slamfire · June 7, 2007, 08:52 PM

BOO: You are in denial. Without tools to measure what is going on, you will only try wild eyed idea after wild eyed idea, and eventually something will work.

Go get the cartridge headspace gages. And while you are doing that, purchase a set of small base dies, and set up the dies with the gages. That way you are controlling the length with the gages, and controlling the "fatness" with the small base dies.

Clark · June 8, 2007, 01:19 PM

You can slip a .003" thick piece of paper under the case inside the shell holder and see if that fixes it.

amamnn · June 8, 2007, 10:10 PM

Chances are, you have not adjusted the dies in the new press to bump the shoulder back enough--and as noted above-- without the proper tools you are going to have problems dialing in case sizing exactly. If you are loading for a very tight match grade chamber, in a custom rifle, by all means get some small base dies, otherwise, don't waste your money.

Walkalong · June 11, 2007, 11:26 AM

You mentioned work hardening of the brass. This can be a factor. The older, work hardened brass will spring back after sizing vs softer, newer brass which will spring back very little. This can be enough to cause problems, but you say it works fine if sized on the Rock Chucker. If the die hits both the shell holder and the shell plate it should work. Are you sure its down tight against the shell plate?

You could grind down your die bottom a couple of thousandths, re-chamfer if necessary, and repolish.

b00 · June 13, 2007, 12:44 AM

I just purchased the rcbs case mic and measured the casing to try to solve this problem. When the cases are sized on my rockchucker with regular dies they come out .002-.003 below min head space for once fired brass and .001-.002 for many fired brass. With small base dies they come out at .003-.004 below min head space for once fired and .002-.004 for many fired.

Now when I put the same dies in the hornady LNL the cases measure:
regular die
.001 to .003 above min head space once fired brass
.005 to .006 above min head space many fired brass

small base die
.001 to .000 below min head space once fired
.003 tp .005 above min head space many fired

Something is obviously wrong with my LNL.

kingudaroad · June 13, 2007, 05:28 PM

Have you tried screwing in the die 1/4 to 1/2 turn more after the die is touching the shellholder on the upstroke. That may bump the shoulder back some.

b00 · June 13, 2007, 10:55 PM

I have tried screwing the die down more and more. If I go any more the press willnot cam over or I will break the pins in the press.

MrGee · June 14, 2007, 11:20 AM

sounds like the brass has been over worked .. to many FL sizings an needs to be annealed.. had the same problem with .308 case from a m1A, could get them in my bolt action, figured the bigger chamber stretched the case .. i even went out an bought new rcbs dies, was using lymans .. didn't work any better, just happened to read a few artical an decided to try annealing before i dumped the cases .. that worked, the answer at least in my case was
annealing, now i do it to some of my older .223 cases . helps with neck tension as well an stops spliting at the neck.. what i found was the brass gets so hard it just springs back.......

June 5, 2007, 09:13 PM	#1
b00 Member Join Date: January 22, 2007 Posts: 47	223 AR loading prob Hello I have loaded thousands of 223s for my AR on my faithful rockchucker. Never ever had a jam or a problem. I recently switched to a hornady locknload press. Upon loading some ammo with the die set that I always use (rcbs 223), some rounds would not chamber all the way and would get stuck. I tried a different die (forester size die) and had the same problem. The problem seems more prevalent with some brass than others. It is a genuine pain in the but because it stops up the rifle good. If I put the die back in the rockchucker and size the brass it works fine. The die on both presses hit the shell plate well. I have measured the shell plate on the hornady and it is .126, rockchucker .125. This does not seem like enough to cause this problem? Any suggestions? Would a small base die fix the problem.

June 5, 2007, 10:47 PM	#3
mc223 Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2007 Location: n/w Wisconsin Posts: 365	Is there some deflection of the shellplate when the die touches? Last edited by mc223; June 6, 2007 at 06:01 AM.

June 7, 2007, 10:34 AM	#8
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	+1 on the Wilson Gauge. I had the same issue and invested in the gauge. I found that I was over-crimping some rounds and it was bulging the shoulder area. I now check every finished round with a Wilson Cartridge Case Gauge. It is also good for checking sized brass for length. Those cases that need trimming are easy to spot. __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

June 8, 2007, 10:10 PM	#12
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Chances are, you have not adjusted the dies in the new press to bump the shoulder back enough--and as noted above-- without the proper tools you are going to have problems dialing in case sizing exactly. If you are loading for a very tight match grade chamber, in a custom rifle, by all means get some small base dies, otherwise, don't waste your money. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

June 5, 2007, 09:55 PM	#2
rgitzlaff Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2006 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 524	Can you try switching shellholders? .001 might make a difference, though it doesn't sound likely. How many times has the brass been reloaded? It might be work hardened from being sized too many times, in which case it'll tend to spring back more instead of size properly. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, all a press does is move the case up and down with a lot of force. Putting the same die on two different presses should yeild identical results if using the same shellholder. If your shellholders are not interchangeable, you could trying sanding off a couple thousandths from the one that is causing you trouble. Just my .02

June 6, 2007, 12:33 PM	#4
ear-ingun Member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Rockies Posts: 28	I have had a similar problem. Solution was to carefully mill off about 0.002 from the shell holder (making the presumtion that this is not the progressive LNL). Then readjusting the die to size the case a little further down. Since the holder is so hard a steel, you will need emmery cloth on a belt type sander such as knife makers use.

June 6, 2007, 04:14 PM	#5
b00 Member Join Date: January 22, 2007 Posts: 47	It is the lock N load that is the problem, which would make it more dificult to reduce the shell plate.

June 6, 2007, 04:29 PM	#6
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	What you do not know is whether your sized cases are too long, too short, or too fat. Go buy a Wilson type cartridge headspace gage and set up your dies based on the sized case measurements. This web site has good pictures and instructions on these type of gages. http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm Advice on grinding shell holders, etc, are a hit and miss proposition. You must have gages to measure what you are doing. The instructions you receive with sizing dies, on how to set them up, are useless. Too fat a case, which I don't think you have, requires a cut chamber. The Wilson gage does not measure anything but length. I have paid Compass Lake about $40.00 to cut a barrel stub with their reamer. And cut the stub to headspace minimum. This cut chamber will tell me if my cases are too long or too fat.

June 7, 2007, 09:38 AM	#7
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The die is adjusted to bump the shell holder even when there is a case being sized? If the die were adjusted when the forces were low, the press has compliance, and then the work of sizing a die is introduced, the brass may not get full length sized.

June 7, 2007, 02:15 PM	#9
b00 Member Join Date: January 22, 2007 Posts: 47	No the die is contacting the shell holder well even with the case in it. The only conclusion that I have been able to come up with from answers on here and from rcbs is that .002 is enough to prevent the round from chambering. I also beleive that as someone else mentioned that the work hardening of the brass is exagerating the problem because it does seem more prevalent on brass that has been fired more. I figure I have 2 options - machine .002 off of the bottom of the die or buy small base dies which rcbs claims are .001 -.002 smaller.

June 7, 2007, 08:52 PM	#10
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	BOO: You are in denial. Without tools to measure what is going on, you will only try wild eyed idea after wild eyed idea, and eventually something will work. Go get the cartridge headspace gages. And while you are doing that, purchase a set of small base dies, and set up the dies with the gages. That way you are controlling the length with the gages, and controlling the "fatness" with the small base dies.

June 8, 2007, 01:19 PM	#11
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	You can slip a .003" thick piece of paper under the case inside the shell holder and see if that fixes it.

June 11, 2007, 11:26 AM	#13
Walkalong Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2007 Location: Al. Posts: 196	You mentioned work hardening of the brass. This can be a factor. The older, work hardened brass will spring back after sizing vs softer, newer brass which will spring back very little. This can be enough to cause problems, but you say it works fine if sized on the Rock Chucker. If the die hits both the shell holder and the shell plate it should work. Are you sure its down tight against the shell plate? You could grind down your die bottom a couple of thousandths, re-chamfer if necessary, and repolish.

June 13, 2007, 12:44 AM	#14
b00 Member Join Date: January 22, 2007 Posts: 47	I just purchased the rcbs case mic and measured the casing to try to solve this problem. When the cases are sized on my rockchucker with regular dies they come out .002-.003 below min head space for once fired brass and .001-.002 for many fired brass. With small base dies they come out at .003-.004 below min head space for once fired and .002-.004 for many fired. Now when I put the same dies in the hornady LNL the cases measure: regular die .001 to .003 above min head space once fired brass .005 to .006 above min head space many fired brass small base die .001 to .000 below min head space once fired .003 tp .005 above min head space many fired Something is obviously wrong with my LNL.

June 13, 2007, 05:28 PM	#15
kingudaroad Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Location: austin Posts: 735	Have you tried screwing in the die 1/4 to 1/2 turn more after the die is touching the shellholder on the upstroke. That may bump the shoulder back some.

June 13, 2007, 10:55 PM	#16
b00 Member Join Date: January 22, 2007 Posts: 47	I have tried screwing the die down more and more. If I go any more the press willnot cam over or I will break the pins in the press.

June 14, 2007, 11:20 AM	#17
MrGee Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 260	sounds like the brass has been over worked .. to many FL sizings an needs to be annealed.. had the same problem with .308 case from a m1A, could get them in my bolt action, figured the bigger chamber stretched the case .. i even went out an bought new rcbs dies, was using lymans .. didn't work any better, just happened to read a few artical an decided to try annealing before i dumped the cases .. that worked, the answer at least in my case was annealing, now i do it to some of my older .223 cases . helps with neck tension as well an stops spliting at the neck.. what i found was the brass gets so hard it just springs back.......