The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 11, 2011, 01:46 PM   #26
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 3,133
Quote:
Hook686
Blood Thirsty Pack of Dogs
WAY out in the country, (50 yards) shoot 'em before they get close as long as it's on your property and it isn't around people. Pepper spray is very effective against dogs.
__________________
Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 02:19 PM   #27
Doc TH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Posts: 633
Dogs

For my own reasons, I have done a number of careful web searches for evidence (versus opinions) regarding dog attacks on humans. People seem to have had varying experiences with standard pepper spray. Some have said it was effective for them, and others reported the opposite. I have seen no direct, specific reported experiences using bear spray for dogs, but if you search the web you can find videos of bear spray deployed, showing that the bears (looked like black bears) moved away very quickly. From the videos, it didn't appear that blowback on the sprayer was likely, as the spray goes out with considerable force for 25 feet and more.
So, bear spray is certainly a consideration. Still, if packs are a local problem, a high capacity semiauto would seem to me to be a prudent choice. However, I have seen NO objective data that support a revolver capacity (5 - 8 rounds) as insufficient.
BTW, the majority of serious injuries from dog attacks have occurred in children.
Doc TH is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 03:22 PM   #28
fightingbard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2009
Posts: 169
First of all, I have to say that, the only "blood thirsty" animal in this world are humans. And that is an unquestionable fact.
Secondly, "no, you do not stand tall and stand firm" if you do not want to be attacked. You kneel down and speak quietly so they do not fear you. (Yes, they have no intention of "eating you".)
And lastly, if you fear dogs, they will know there is something wrong with you. Be mindful of yourself, and if you fear them, if you will get excited, there is a chance that a pack will attack you.
So be armed, and be prepared.


All the best
__________________
I like blades even more...
fightingbard is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 03:50 PM   #29
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,840
So you suggest kneeling down so your face and throat are even closer to the potential threat, and your mobility it almost nil. Excellent plan.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 03:53 PM   #30
HotShot.444
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2010
Posts: 112
This is NOT a hi-jack:

I've heard enough pro/con about Glock, that I had to check out a few; I now own 4. I'm hearing the same blather re: "judge" et al. So I have one: 3"x3". I'll keep you posted. If I were the O.P., I'd consider a "proofed" Judge and an accessory hi-cap .45 acp to dispatch a goodly number of canines. That first, then the bear-spray. I'll tend to the "proofing" now, planning on 3" oal brass, trimmed, stoked with varying discs and ØØØ. I'll find what works out to 10 yds. and if nothing does, I'll set down and shaddup. (anyone have any unused .303 Brit brass, or 9.3 x 74 R?)
HotShot.444 is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 03:54 PM   #31
fightingbard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2009
Posts: 169
Ok, I will say this again, it seems...
They do not want to eat you. They attack you, because they fear you. You have to show them that you are not a threat.
This is the case for dogs.

This will not be the case, if you are out all alone in the mountains, and if you are being chased by a pack of hungry wolves.


Best
__________________
I like blades even more...
fightingbard is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 04:41 PM   #32
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,889
That does not square with attacks on children and elderly folks.
A pack may be bloodthirsty, and kill for the joy of killing.
Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 05:06 PM   #33
fightingbard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2009
Posts: 169
Dear Jerry,

Animals (that do not have a developed brain telling themselves that they are something else) does not have a perception as "joy of killing."
They kill only in these circumstances:

1. They need food, and you are of size that they instinctively estimate as prey.
2. They feel that, themselves or their offspring are under threat.

Children and elderly or sick, can sometimes seem as prey to wild animals, but I very much suspect this situation can occur regarding dogs, unless they have somehow did this before. (hunting and eating human, by some bizarre incident)

Dogs are very much domesticated animals that have been living among humans for so long time, that, to put it simply: They know us...
They know that we can not be their meal of choice...
We are big, and we fight back...

To summarize:
They have no perception as joy of killing, they know we fight back, so the only logical explanation is that, if they behave aggressively it means they feel a threat from us.
I am only suggesting that, "you have to show that you are not a threat".
In most cases, this will simply do the trick.

On the other hand, irregularities and as mentioned before bizarre encounters sometimes happen, but to talk about them would be nothing more than speculating.

All the best
__________________
I like blades even more...
fightingbard is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 05:18 PM   #34
Doc Intrepid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,037
Dogs have been trained to attack and kill humans.

Both by militaries, as well as by civilians.

The dogs may take no "joy" in it, but to imply that it cannot be is perhaps too broad a statement.
__________________
Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case.
Doc Intrepid is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 05:25 PM   #35
fightingbard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2009
Posts: 169
My God, I am feeling tired already.

Dear Doc Intrepid,

So regarding this thread, are you suggesting that, we should consider the possibility of military trained dogs? Or dogs trained by some psychopath?

No argument, and I mean no argument, regardless of its subject can be made upon irregularities and "one at a lifetime incidents".

Let's put it this way:
99% percent of the time, dogs do not attack people. If they do, 99% of the time, it is because they feel threatened.

I hope this will suffice.


Best.
__________________
I like blades even more...
fightingbard is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 06:16 PM   #36
NWPilgrim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,340
Not all "packs of dogs" will be feral, but some certainly can be. You get several dogs who have been mistreated and trained to fight or attack ruthlessly (e.g., by drug dealers, etc) and you could encounter a pack that is not out for prey or protecting young so much as doing what they were abused/trained for: to attack ruthlessly.

Considering that there is a chance to encounter one or more abused, feral dog(s) I would suggest:

1) Always be ready for the worst case scenario FIRST, then de-escalate response if time available and indication of lower threat. That means a higher capacity/power handgun ready at hand.

2) DO NOT waste time calling Animal Control if you feel immediately threatened (dogs on same block of street with you). They do not have emergency response capability in most towns. They show up when available and that could be next hour or two days hence.

3) Having a non-lethal means to protect yourself would be good. If you get pepper spray get some that shoots a stream of liquid, not just a fog spray. It could be raining or windy. I would only use a fog pepper spray as last ditch defense for "they are on me and ripping me apart" and accept that I will get as much as they do. A stream pepper spray could be effective at 10 ft or more.

Like any threat of human or animal nature you have to evaluate each situation. The best thing is to run through various scenarios mentally and determine what behavior and circumstance will be signal to you that you are in grave danger. A pack of dogs 50 ft away and just mulling around yapping is not the same threat of a pack 50 ft away and running full bore toward you snarling.

If you see a pack coming near you, do not get transfixed on just the ones to your immediate front. Many packs soon develop the tactic to keep the prey busy to the front while one or more members loop around and attack the rear to hold or disable the prey. I've seen this behavior not just in feral dogs, but even tame dogs in play can have this instinct. Backing away before any get a chance to get behind you is imperative. Once surrounded your chances of survival go way down. I would apply this principle to a pack of feral dogs or feral human gang.

ETA: A quote of the Deer PArk police from the article: "because the dogs appear to be killing for fun rather than food." Over 100 animals killed in the last few months.
__________________
"The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition."
- James Madison
NWPilgrim is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 06:45 PM   #37
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
Quote:
For a pack of blood-thirsty dogs, nothing beats a 12 gauge.
But perhaps not when they're up REAL close and personal. Just like any other dangerous situtation.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 09:35 PM   #38
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Fightingbard, just a few months ago, not too far from the University of Georgia, a retired couple was killed by a feral pack.

The wife was killed first. Apparently, she was walking their dog, and the pack attacked it. It's not clear whether she tried to defend the dog, and was subsequently attacked, or whether she and the dog were attacked. Either way, she was killed. (Reports at the time indicated animal control and police thought the dog was probably the initial target; I don't believe there were direct witnesses.)

The husband, a retired UGA professor, went looking for his wife. He found her, and the pack had not departed the area. While he was trying to assist her, he was attacked and killed.

Police ended up catching and killing over a dozen dogs, associated with the pack.

Feral packs don't behave in predictable manners.

They are also growing more common, due to the weak economy. People have to move, to find work, or simply lose their homes. Many of them just seem to ditch the dogs somewhere, or leave them at their old home.

I've ended up with three dogs, over the years, who were abandoned animals.

I would not recommend kneeling, etc, when dealing with a pack. Retreating, slowly and calmly, in an arc (non-linear movements are considered less threatening or antagonistic by dogs), while avoiding direct eye contact might work.

It would be good to have other options, if that doesn't work.
MLeake is offline  
Old June 11, 2011, 11:36 PM   #39
Doc TH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Posts: 633
dog bites

If anyone wants to kneel down and speak softly to aggressive canines, that is their choice - but not mine. Dogs of significant size can be very dangerous. I have seen too many unwary folks in emergency rooms with serious injuries to take a casual approach to a dog that is behaving aggressively. I have pasted data below from the Centers for Disease Control:

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC)

Dog Bite: Fact Sheet
(See CDC MMWR article.)

How big is the problem?
• About 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs each year.
• Almost one in five of those who are bitten, a total of 885,000, require medical attention for dog bite-related injuries.
• In 2006, more than 31,000 people underwent reconstructive surgery as a result of being bitten by dogs.

I don't trust unfamiliar aggressive humans and I don't trust unfamiliar aggressive dogs, and I'm certainly noy going to kneel down in front of them. So far I have not needed reconstructive surgery, and have no desire to have that experience.
Doc TH is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 01:46 AM   #40
sigxder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2009
Posts: 390
I had 5 acres of land out in the country many years ago. I used to like to walk my property at night. Obviously their were no street lights. So i carried a Mag light and a .357Magnum. We had a problem with feral dogs. Some just got loose and joined a pack. Others were coyote/dog hybrids. With a pack their is usually an alpha male. He's usually out in front. 2-3 times dogs came after me. Whenever I popped the lead dogs head with the .357 that and the muzzle blast sent the others running. Most people mauled by dogs are unarmed. All I know is what worked for me.
sigxder is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 04:23 AM   #41
fightingbard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2009
Posts: 169
Guys,

Here, we have dogs everywhere. They are not owned, but they are not feral dogs. They are just being checked for diseases, labeled and sent back to streets. So they are pretty much a part of daily life.
Whole my life, I ve seen angry dogs, mistreated dogs, formed packs etc....
Only one time it was the opposite...Meaning, it was I that felt threatened. It was the only time I got scared from a dog/dogs.
It was a territorial threat for its owners house and it made very clear that if I take one more step it will attack. So I did not.
I stepped back slowly, turned around and that's it.

As I mentioned before, I do underline the possibility of dog attacks, they occasionally do happen. I know a pack "can be" very dangerous and I do feel very sorry about folks who lost their lives.
I would neither go near a pack that seems to have aggressive behavior, nor advice anyone to kneel down while surrounded by them.
All I mentioned are the general rules about "more or less domesticated" dogs.
"Generally", dogs do not attack people.

However, as I always do, I will again advise carrying a solid knife with you always.
To shoot a galloping angry dog (even one of them) would be very hard. Consider the possibility of the dog being "on you" in a second. Try and protect your throat by sacrificing left arm and use your right arm to stab it again and again.
At least that is what I would try and do.



All the best

Note: I still do not believe the term "blood thirsty" is adequate for animals, other than us...
__________________
I like blades even more...

Last edited by fightingbard; June 12, 2011 at 04:34 AM.
fightingbard is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 06:06 AM   #42
Maxem0815
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2011
Posts: 216
From my experience working for the Telephone Co. pepper spray or mace etc doesn't work on dogs. Bear spray may be better. I see lots of elderly people walking around with walking sticks or heavy canes to deal with dogs. Shooting a dog is hard they don't fall over when hit unless you use a BIG GUN like a rifle. I agree with the knife or big stick therory.

Mace
Maxem0815 is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 07:39 AM   #43
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,889
Hi fightingbard,

I just do not buy your argument. But really I do not care what their motives are. If a dog attacks a human, unprovoked, then kill it.

Our society seems to want to find excuses for violent and illegal behavior, and make that an excuse for actions. If one does the crime he pays the price. That includes people and dogs.
I'd rather take the time to hunt down and destroy the pack that attempting to justify its behavior.

I have known of dogs getting into a chicken pen and killing 50 or so chickens, and not eating a single one. They killed them for the pleasure of killing. Instincts? Yes, but that didn't save their lives.

Regards,
Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 08:28 AM   #44
Deja vu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2010
Location: Border of Idaho & Montana
Posts: 2,584
I would think that any thing that will work on a human will work on a dog (even the biggest dogs)

I think the best option is to call animal control if you see a pack like this and then stay inside.

If you do go have to go out I think your best bet would be bear spray. Any gun that would work well on a person would work as well. IF it was me I would carry my marlin 357 magnum carbine. Fairly high capacity. More accurate at longer distances and still light enough that it can be carried easily. Of course I live in a rural area so this may not be a good idea for every one.
__________________
Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...
Deja vu is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 10:10 AM   #45
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,786
Quote:
They kill only in these circumstances:

1. They need food, and you are of size that they instinctively estimate as prey.
2. They feel that, themselves or their offspring are under threat.
As a veterinarian, I deal with dogs every day, and I can tell you that the word "only" in the above statement is incorrect. Fear-biting dogs certainly bite hard and can injure you, but aggressive dogs exist, and behavior changes markedly towards aggression when they are in packs.

I have personally had a small pack of dogs tear out screens to get into my house and kill my cats. And there was a report in this morning's paper about dogs who jumped a fence to attack an elderly man. They tore one arm off, and he is in a university hospital with doctors trying to save the other arm and repair facial injuries.

You may argue about whether the behavior of such animals is altered by humans or ingrained in their pack behavior as predators, but in the moments when you are defending yourself against such an attack, those arguments are not important. Dogs are extremely intelligent animals that coordinate attacks as predators, and as such are formidable opponents.

The advice of kneeling down to reassure a fearful dog is a reasonable way to handle a potential fear biter who is on a leash under the control of another person. It is of no value and potentially highly dangerous with an aggressive dog. Aggression and fear-biting both result in bite wounds, but they are very different behaviorally.
TailGator is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 10:11 AM   #46
bigbaby
Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 79
Pepper spray, Bro! By the way the dog owners and lovers are right; they know the difference between wild or feral dogs and a domesticated dog. IF you use the 'stand tall, talk firmly' method and truly are not afraid it works with every dog except trained guard dogs and OF COURSE wild or feral dogs. A lot of people are just afraid of dogs, their fears are confirmed at every opportunity, but it it because they are afraid of dogs. Dogs are very empathetic, they sense the fear, become afraid and attack.
__________________
"Do I preach to you when you are laying stoned in the gutter? No. Now beat it!" Futurama
bigbaby is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 10:12 AM   #47
Catfishman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 727
Quote:
Animals (that do not have a developed brain telling themselves that they are something else) does not have a perception as "joy of killing."
They kill only in these circumstances:

1. They need food, and you are of size that they instinctively estimate as prey.
2. They feel that, themselves or their offspring are under threat.
Wow! I don't know what to say. Except that, you are wrong. I wonder how you developed this opinion.

Some dogs, for whatever reason, enjoy killing. I've seen it many times.


Last Winter, I had a pack of dogs charge across a large open field growling, barking and snarling at me. I doubt I was threatening them, as they had to cross a large field to get to me. I doubt they thought of me as an easy source of food.

All I could think about was what if it had been my 5 and 7 year old kids in that field instead of me.
Catfishman is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 11:58 AM   #48
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
Dear Fightingbard.

I realize I'm not the best animal trainer in the state, so I have a difficult time teaching my horses, chickens, etc. to "bow down and speak softly" to roaming dogs.

Nor do I expect my wife and grandkids to do the same when they are attacked while checking the mail.

I live in the country where city folks think we need more dogs and cats. They figure if they just drop them off in the country, they will be fed and cared for.

That is not the case, they start running in packs and attack live stock, poultry, and wildlife.

As a livestock/poultry keeper its my responsibility to care for and protect my critters. And Sir, that's exactly what I intend on doing. And I don't mean by sweet talking them out of chewing on my critters.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 12:38 PM   #49
TXGunNut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: If you have to ask...
Posts: 2,860
I live in a rural subdivision near a metro area and like Capt Kraig I have no tolerance for feral dogs. My neighbors have livestock, small pets and young children that are at risk of attack and disease from these packs of feral dogs. The thought of adopting a submissive posture to a feral dog is foreign to me, I prefer modified Weaver but will kneel...for a longer shot.
__________________
Life Member NRA, TSRA
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove
My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.
TXGunNut is offline  
Old June 12, 2011, 12:43 PM   #50
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
TailGator, I had thought about posting a link to the article you are talking about, but had decided it wasn't feral pack behavior. There were two dogs, and they belonged to the next door neighbor. For some reason, they jumped the fence and attacked the old man.

But it is a very good example of the amount of damage large dogs can inflict, and also of an attack not based on hunger or need to defend the pack.

Pit bulls... Sad thing is, I like most of the pit bulls I've met.

Last I saw, the owner hadn't been charged with anything. The dogs have been euthanized. I haven't seen any comments by other neighbors of the victim as to whether there had been any history of problems with those dogs, or whether the dog owner was viewed as a thug type - or whether this attack truly came out of the blue.

Some cases do come out of nowhere, when it comes to domestic dogs, but I think the majority are at least somewhat predictable.

Feral packs are not predictable, in my opinion (and in the majority collective opinion here, it seems).

KraigWY, we got our latest dog because (we are quite convinced) her previous owner thought dropping her off in the country, near a horse farm, was the best way to ditch the dog. My lady found the dog lurking in the woods near the stables, acting lost and confused but not aggressive. It took two days before she was able to convince the dog to approach; she then took the dog to the vet, where it turned out she did in fact have a microchip. The owner, when called, said the dog had grown much bigger than she had expected, and also the owner's elderly mother had moved in with her and her little daughter, and the dog posed a danger of knocking her mother down.

She said they had made the dog an outdoor dog, and she must have run off.

I have a hard time believing a dog that had always been an indoor dog, and slept with a child, would have roamed six miles as the crow flies, and about ten miles as the valleys actually go.

Some people are jackasses, and should be kicked in their private parts.
MLeake is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12206 seconds with 8 queries