Bill Jordan. Colt Border Patrol. Is this Bunk?

Doug.38PR · May 22, 2007, 10:22 AM

http://www.nationalfirearmsmuseum.or...nforcement.asp

Is this BS? I just got Jordan's No Second Place Winners. I see no mention of this revolver or him using or carrying it. He seems to have prefered the M-19 .357 and didn't care too much for the .38 special at all. I heard elsewhere that he prefered Smith & Wesson revolvers too.

Dfariswheel · May 22, 2007, 02:05 PM

The Border patrol always favored Colt revolvers.
In the 1930's, they used Colt New Service .38's which famed Border Patrolman Charles Askins sighted in and checked upon receipt.

In the 50's, the BP bought the rare Colt Border Patrol, and it was the only authorized gun, so Jordon did use it.
I've never heard that Jordon was involved in the purchase of the Border Patrol, but it's very likely he was.

RJay · May 22, 2007, 05:46 PM

Bill Jordan was in the Bordar Patrol for quite a few years before the Model 19 was introduced in 1954 .

tipoc · May 23, 2007, 01:10 PM

Take another look at the book, which is always helpful anyway, Jordan speaks highly of a good many Colt's. He also speaks well of the .38 Spl. he just believed that there were better rounds for police work than the .38. He advises in the .357 a 160 gr. bullet at 1200 fps out of a 4" barrel. His chapter on "Calibers and Loads" is interesting reading.

tipoc

kcshooter · May 23, 2007, 04:04 PM

It was Bill Jordan that helped develop the Border Patrol revolver into a heavy 4" barrel .357 instead of the .38. He was the one that helped develop the K-frame model 19 Combat Magnum, which was the Border Patrol gun that he envisioned in the first place. (Also my first gun.)

croyance · May 23, 2007, 09:07 PM

I think at the time and earlier, many Border Patrol agents carried non-authorized weapons.

**Mal H** · May 23, 2007, 09:22 PM

Several of you will notice that many posts have been deleted.

This is the Revolver Forum, not the Legal and Political forum. If you wish to discuss illegal aliens, it should be done in the L&P forum, not here. Also, we do not allow racial slurs in any form in any forum no matter what the history of that slur may be.

Now back to your regularly scheduled revolver discussion.

Doug.38PR · May 23, 2007, 09:29 PM

Thanks Mal.

kcshooter · May 23, 2007, 09:39 PM

Appreciate the clean up!

22-rimfire · May 23, 2007, 10:12 PM

Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith were the driving force for the development of the 41 magnum. Skeeter Skelton also had a hand in promoting the caliber with Smith & Wesson and the ammunition companies. It was hoped to be the preferred police round with better man stopping capabilities than the 357 magnum. Unfortunately, Smith & Wesson chose to market it in the large N-frame revolver and the ammunition manufactures initially only offered it as a "magnum" and not a lighter police round. The police round was pretty much recommended by Keith and it would have been a "41 Special" loading (akin to the 44 Spl). Anyway, the new caliber in 1964 did not catch on in the field for police use and the rest is history. It became a thinking man's magnum revolver round popular with hand loaders. It continues to be over shadowed by the 44 magnum for hunting purposes.

As I recall, the Border Patrol tends to prefer the heavier caliber handguns since the guys in the field are said to see a lot of action with firearms in comparison with most LEO's. The 45 ACP was popular with the Border Patrol even when most police forces were switching to the 9mm's.

**Mike Irwin** · May 23, 2007, 10:48 PM

"The 45 ACP was popular with the Border Patrol even when most police forces were switching to the 9mm's."

After World War I when the Border Patrol was in its infancy the standard issue weapons were Model of 1917 revolvers in .45 ACP and Enfield bolt-action rifles.

Most agents quickly ditched these in favor of personal weapons such as the 07 Winchester rifle in .351 and a variety of handguns, including 1911s, Peacemakers, and S&W and Colt double-action revolvers.

Someone mentioned the Colt New Service .38s that Charles Askins helped procure.

According to Askins writings, he personally took delivery of all of the revolver and sighted them in, including bending the front sight if necessary and either cutting the front sight down or filing the rear notch deeper.

He didn't bother to put explanatory notes in the crates when he forwarded them, which caused a small incident with BP's upper management when they heard that Colt had 'shipped' guns with bent front sights.

Askins also said that he very much would like to have ordered the guns in .45 Colt, but the Border Patrol's administration wouldn't go for it.

Doug.38PR · May 23, 2007, 11:18 PM

wonder why they didn't stick with the .41 Long Colt that was offered in the Army Special or at least offer it as a more powerful .41 Special? It was on the same frame as the Official Police. Of course, I guess the .38 Spl. LRN had more power and penetrating abilities as it was a smokeless cartridge than the .41 Long Colt even though the caliber wasn't as large. Still, couldn't they have upgraded?

tipoc · May 24, 2007, 07:22 AM

One reason Askins chose the .38, and it was the official side arm for several decades, was that, according to him, most border patrol agents couldn't shoot worth a darn and had poor gun handling skills. He established their first systematic training courses. When Jordan signed up some time later he benefited from these and always gave Askins his due.

tipoc

**Mike Irwin** · May 24, 2007, 08:45 AM

After the change from heeled bullets to the modern bullet, the .41 Long Colt was a .... .38

Of course, after the change to modern bullets, the .38 was a .357...

Numerous people have wondered why no one bothered to bring out an uploaded .38 Special with a 200-gr. bullet. It would have, according to some, mimmiced (sp?) the .41 Long Colt fairly closely.

And, the .41 was also offered in later years in smokeless loadings.

Doug.38PR · May 24, 2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

After the change from heeled bullets to the modern bullet, the .41 Long Colt was a .... .38

Of course, after the change to modern bullets, the .38 was a .357...

I'm not sure I understand these two statements. The .38 was called a .38 because of the size of the cartridge (at that time) right? But the bullet itself was a .357.

Are you saying that the .41 was called a .41 long colt because of the size of the cartridge and the round itself was .38? (I've seen the bore size of a .41 Long Colt Army Special....it's noticably different from the Official Police .38. Heeled bullets? Modern bullets, what's the difference?

**Mike Irwin** · May 24, 2007, 10:02 AM

Doug,

"I'm not sure I understand these two statements. The .38 was called a .38 because of the size of the cartridge (at that time) right? But the bullet itself was a .357."

Yes. No. Maybe. It's actually very complicated....

Prior to about 1875, many of the metallic cartridges that were brought out used heeled bullets. They looked something like a mushroom.

The most common example of this, and the only one still in regular production/circulation, is the .22 Long Rifle.

Using a heeled bullet, the bullet diameter is very close to the "name" diameter.

Heeled bullets of that time frame were the same diameter as the outside of the case.

In the case of the .41 Long Colt, that was .405 or so, or rounding it up, .41. But, the heeled portion of the bullet, which fit into the case mouth, was very close to .38 caliber.

With the .38 Long and Short Colt cartridges, the outside diameter was .381, or .38, while the diameter of heeled portion of the bullet was .357-.361.

As originally designed, the .38 Special did NOT use the heeled bullet -- it used the .357-diameter bullet.

S&W chose the .38 name, in spite of the reduce diameter of the bullet, because they were hoping to interest the military in the .38 Special as a replacement round for the .38 Long Colt, which had proven to be rather lacking in the Philippines.

hhb · May 24, 2007, 01:47 PM

I read an article about Bill Jordan somewhere, and it mentioned that he was involved in the accidental shooting of another Border Patrol Agent.

dgludwig · May 24, 2007, 03:49 PM

From what I've read, he (Jordan) was not only involved in an accidental shooting, the victim died.

BigG · June 4, 2007, 08:56 AM

I believe Jordan practicing his quick draw put a round through the locker that contained the boss' uniform. That was the source of "he shot somebody" rumors, IIRC.

**Mal H** · June 4, 2007, 04:04 PM

No, I believe you'll find that "rumor" to be true.

In 1956, Jordan fired a .357 revolver in the Chula Vista, CA BP office. The round went through a wall and hit BP Agent John Rector in the head. He died not long after at the hospital. Jordan "thought" the revolver was empty.

Doug.38PR · June 4, 2007, 05:45 PM

did he go to jail, get sued?

BigG · June 5, 2007, 06:56 AM

Sorry, Mal, my bad. The article here states he was killed by accident, but does not name Jordan, by name.

**Mal H** · June 5, 2007, 04:35 PM

I don't believe any legal action was taken against Jordan. It was written off as the tragic accident it was. You've got to believe that any legal action would be far milder than the guilt he must have felt for the remainder of his life.

Doug.38PR · June 5, 2007, 05:05 PM

exactly. now why don't we think that way today. Accidents don't happen these days, we have to find and punish somebody to make ourselves feel good. Nevermind that the driver, shooter whatever is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life

tipoc · June 5, 2007, 07:06 PM

Doug,

Quote:

now why don't we think that way today.

Some of us do.

tipoc

May 22, 2007, 10:22 AM	#1
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Bill Jordan. Colt Border Patrol. Is this Bunk? http://www.nationalfirearmsmuseum.or...nforcement.asp Is this BS? I just got Jordan's No Second Place Winners. I see no mention of this revolver or him using or carrying it. He seems to have prefered the M-19 .357 and didn't care too much for the .38 special at all. I heard elsewhere that he prefered Smith & Wesson revolvers too.

May 23, 2007, 10:48 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"The 45 ACP was popular with the Border Patrol even when most police forces were switching to the 9mm's." After World War I when the Border Patrol was in its infancy the standard issue weapons were Model of 1917 revolvers in .45 ACP and Enfield bolt-action rifles. Most agents quickly ditched these in favor of personal weapons such as the 07 Winchester rifle in .351 and a variety of handguns, including 1911s, Peacemakers, and S&W and Colt double-action revolvers. Someone mentioned the Colt New Service .38s that Charles Askins helped procure. According to Askins writings, he personally took delivery of all of the revolver and sighted them in, including bending the front sight if necessary and either cutting the front sight down or filing the rear notch deeper. He didn't bother to put explanatory notes in the crates when he forwarded them, which caused a small incident with BP's upper management when they heard that Colt had 'shipped' guns with bent front sights. Askins also said that he very much would like to have ordered the guns in .45 Colt, but the Border Patrol's administration wouldn't go for it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 24, 2007, 08:45 AM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	After the change from heeled bullets to the modern bullet, the .41 Long Colt was a .... .38 Of course, after the change to modern bullets, the .38 was a .357... Numerous people have wondered why no one bothered to bring out an uploaded .38 Special with a 200-gr. bullet. It would have, according to some, mimmiced (sp?) the .41 Long Colt fairly closely. And, the .41 was also offered in later years in smokeless loadings. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 24, 2007, 10:02 AM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Doug, "I'm not sure I understand these two statements. The .38 was called a .38 because of the size of the cartridge (at that time) right? But the bullet itself was a .357." Yes. No. Maybe. It's actually very complicated.... Prior to about 1875, many of the metallic cartridges that were brought out used heeled bullets. They looked something like a mushroom. The most common example of this, and the only one still in regular production/circulation, is the .22 Long Rifle. Using a heeled bullet, the bullet diameter is very close to the "name" diameter. Heeled bullets of that time frame were the same diameter as the outside of the case. In the case of the .41 Long Colt, that was .405 or so, or rounding it up, .41. But, the heeled portion of the bullet, which fit into the case mouth, was very close to .38 caliber. With the .38 Long and Short Colt cartridges, the outside diameter was .381, or .38, while the diameter of heeled portion of the bullet was .357-.361. As originally designed, the .38 Special did NOT use the heeled bullet -- it used the .357-diameter bullet. S&W chose the .38 name, in spite of the reduce diameter of the bullet, because they were hoping to interest the military in the .38 Special as a replacement round for the .38 Long Colt, which had proven to be rather lacking in the Philippines. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 24, 2007, 01:47 PM	#17
hhb Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2007 Location: Foothills of the Ozarks Posts: 316	Bill Jordan I read an article about Bill Jordan somewhere, and it mentioned that he was involved in the accidental shooting of another Border Patrol Agent.

May 22, 2007, 02:05 PM	#2
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	The Border patrol always favored Colt revolvers. In the 1930's, they used Colt New Service .38's which famed Border Patrolman Charles Askins sighted in and checked upon receipt. In the 50's, the BP bought the rare Colt Border Patrol, and it was the only authorized gun, so Jordon did use it. I've never heard that Jordon was involved in the purchase of the Border Patrol, but it's very likely he was.

May 22, 2007, 05:46 PM	#3
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Bill Jordan was in the Bordar Patrol for quite a few years before the Model 19 was introduced in 1954 .

May 23, 2007, 01:10 PM	#4
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Take another look at the book, which is always helpful anyway, Jordan speaks highly of a good many Colt's. He also speaks well of the .38 Spl. he just believed that there were better rounds for police work than the .38. He advises in the .357 a 160 gr. bullet at 1200 fps out of a 4" barrel. His chapter on "Calibers and Loads" is interesting reading. tipoc

May 23, 2007, 04:04 PM	#5
kcshooter Junior member Join Date: May 6, 2007 Posts: 439	It was Bill Jordan that helped develop the Border Patrol revolver into a heavy 4" barrel .357 instead of the .38. He was the one that helped develop the K-frame model 19 Combat Magnum, which was the Border Patrol gun that he envisioned in the first place. (Also my first gun.)

May 23, 2007, 09:07 PM	#6
croyance Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2001 Posts: 3,604	I think at the time and earlier, many Border Patrol agents carried non-authorized weapons.

May 23, 2007, 09:22 PM	#7
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Several of you will notice that many posts have been deleted. This is the Revolver Forum, not the Legal and Political forum. If you wish to discuss illegal aliens, it should be done in the L&P forum, not here. Also, we do not allow racial slurs in any form in any forum no matter what the history of that slur may be. Now back to your regularly scheduled revolver discussion.

May 23, 2007, 09:29 PM	#8
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Thanks Mal.

May 23, 2007, 09:39 PM	#9
kcshooter Junior member Join Date: May 6, 2007 Posts: 439	Appreciate the clean up!

May 23, 2007, 10:12 PM	#10
22-rimfire Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 5,323	Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith were the driving force for the development of the 41 magnum. Skeeter Skelton also had a hand in promoting the caliber with Smith & Wesson and the ammunition companies. It was hoped to be the preferred police round with better man stopping capabilities than the 357 magnum. Unfortunately, Smith & Wesson chose to market it in the large N-frame revolver and the ammunition manufactures initially only offered it as a "magnum" and not a lighter police round. The police round was pretty much recommended by Keith and it would have been a "41 Special" loading (akin to the 44 Spl). Anyway, the new caliber in 1964 did not catch on in the field for police use and the rest is history. It became a thinking man's magnum revolver round popular with hand loaders. It continues to be over shadowed by the 44 magnum for hunting purposes. As I recall, the Border Patrol tends to prefer the heavier caliber handguns since the guys in the field are said to see a lot of action with firearms in comparison with most LEO's. The 45 ACP was popular with the Border Patrol even when most police forces were switching to the 9mm's.

May 23, 2007, 11:18 PM	#12
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	wonder why they didn't stick with the .41 Long Colt that was offered in the Army Special or at least offer it as a more powerful .41 Special? It was on the same frame as the Official Police. Of course, I guess the .38 Spl. LRN had more power and penetrating abilities as it was a smokeless cartridge than the .41 Long Colt even though the caliber wasn't as large. Still, couldn't they have upgraded?

May 24, 2007, 07:22 AM	#13
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	One reason Askins chose the .38, and it was the official side arm for several decades, was that, according to him, most border patrol agents couldn't shoot worth a darn and had poor gun handling skills. He established their first systematic training courses. When Jordan signed up some time later he benefited from these and always gave Askins his due. tipoc

May 24, 2007, 03:49 PM	#18
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	From what I've read, he (Jordan) was not only involved in an accidental shooting, the victim died. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

June 4, 2007, 08:56 AM	#19
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	I believe Jordan practicing his quick draw put a round through the locker that contained the boss' uniform. That was the source of "he shot somebody" rumors, IIRC. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

June 4, 2007, 04:04 PM	#20
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	No, I believe you'll find that "rumor" to be true. In 1956, Jordan fired a .357 revolver in the Chula Vista, CA BP office. The round went through a wall and hit BP Agent John Rector in the head. He died not long after at the hospital. Jordan "thought" the revolver was empty.

June 4, 2007, 05:45 PM	#21
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	did he go to jail, get sued?

June 5, 2007, 06:56 AM	#22
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Sorry, Mal, my bad. The article here states he was killed by accident, but does not name Jordan, by name. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

June 5, 2007, 04:35 PM	#23
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	I don't believe any legal action was taken against Jordan. It was written off as the tragic accident it was. You've got to believe that any legal action would be far milder than the guilt he must have felt for the remainder of his life.

June 5, 2007, 05:05 PM	#24
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	exactly. now why don't we think that way today. Accidents don't happen these days, we have to find and punish somebody to make ourselves feel good. Nevermind that the driver, shooter whatever is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life