C&L vs striker safety?

chris in va · January 30, 2013, 07:00 PM

I could use a bit of clarity on this.

Say you have three trigger types. DAO, SAO, DA striker with trigger face safety. All have equal pull force, 5.5lb.

Everyone says it's absolutely mandatory to keep the SAO with safety on. Now all things being equal, if something gets in the trigger guard and more than 5.5lb of force is put on it, it'll fire.

I guess what I'm asking, why is safety use on SAO pistols mandatory? It could just as easily happen on the other trigger types.

MTSCMike · January 30, 2013, 07:17 PM

With very few exceptions, the trigger stroke on DAO and, to a lesser degree, striker fired pistols is longer than that of a SAO pistol. DAO pistols require a rather long trigger pull so "accidently" pulling the trigger is more difficult even if the pull weight required is the same. Since striker fired guns have somewhat shorter trigger strokes they usually have a safety built into the trigger to ensure it only moves when pulled by the trigger finger.

The only true safety is the shooter...keep your finger off the trigger unless you intend to fire.

jimbob24 · January 30, 2013, 11:45 PM

Here's an example, the Beretta 92A1 is DA/SA. After the slide is racked the first shot is like 12 or so pounds of trigger force (don't quote me on that)...(assuming you dont cock the hammer back manually) after that first round, trigger pull is practically nothing! 4 pounds or so. It takes very little to pull that trigger. Personally i would never carry my 92 in SA. Too paranoid. But carrying the xd9 sc with one in the chamber, doesn't bother me a bit. Its got the back strap safety and the trigger safety. It could fall to the ground and I'd have enough confidence that she wouldn't go off.

All depends on the gun I suppose... Hope I could help!

bigghoss · January 31, 2013, 12:05 AM

I think MTSCMike pretty much nailed it. In the OP's hypothetical, all three triggers have the same weight of pull however typically a SAO pistol or a DA in SA mode is probably 4.5 lbs and some are even less. Even if they are the same weight they behave differently, as Mike mentioned, some having shorter, smoother pulls than others.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 31, 2013, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris in va

Say you have three trigger types. DAO, SAO, DA striker with trigger face safety. All have equal pull force, 5.5lb.

Everyone says it's absolutely mandatory to keep the SAO with safety on. Now all things being equal, if something gets in the trigger guard and more than 5.5lb of force is put on it, it'll fire.

I guess what I'm asking, why is safety use on SAO pistols mandatory? It could just as easily happen on the other trigger types.

What you are overlooking is that I don't there are any DA/SA or DAO pistols that have a trigger pull anywhere near 5.5 pounds in double action mode. They are typically closer to 12 pounds.

Tactical Jackalope · January 31, 2013, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

What you are overlooking is that I don't there are any DA/SA or DAO pistols that have a trigger pull anywhere near 5.5 pounds in double action mode. They are typically closer to 12 pounds.

I was going to say that. Happy I scrolled down.

There isn't a factory DA/SA or DAO handgun that's that low. 10, 12, maybe even 9. But 5.5 on a DA pull? Negative.

Sent from my phone...expect typos.

ScotchMan · January 31, 2013, 12:42 PM

Quote:

What you are overlooking is that I don't there are any DA/SA or DAO pistols that have a trigger pull anywhere near 5.5 pounds in double action mode. They are typically closer to 12 pounds.

I bet you knew when you posted that that someone would post an exception.

H&K's LEM in Light configuration is double action only and has a pull weight of about 5lbs.

Boom.

Fishbed77 · January 31, 2013, 01:33 PM

Quote:

There isn't a factory DA/SA or DAO handgun that's that low. 10, 12, maybe even 9. But 5.5 on a DA pull? Negative.

The Walther P99AS (along with its clones) is a pistol that muddies the water a bit. It is a striker-fired DA/SA pistol with a 4.5 lb. single-action pull and an 8.5 lb. double-action pull (after de-cocking).

However, if the trigger is cocked, the first single-action pull is equal in length to a double-action pull, but just 4.5 lbs. Every subsequent single-action pull is very short and still 4.5 lbs.

It's a very elegant system that combines the safety of a DA/SA pistol with the excellent trigger feel of a good SAO pistol.

tipoc · January 31, 2013, 04:53 PM

To get back to the ops original question...

Quote:

Everyone says it's absolutely mandatory to keep the SAO with safety on. Now all things being equal, if something gets in the trigger guard and more than 5.5lb of force is put on it, it'll fire.

I guess what I'm asking, why is safety use on SAO pistols mandatory? It could just as easily happen on the other trigger types.

Ok let's look at some real world guns. The Browning HP is a single action pistol. If you are carrying the gun in hand or in a holster without the external safety in place and the hammer at full cock, all it takes for the gun to fire is for the trigger to be fully depressed. So if the safety is not on and "something gets in the trigger guard" and fully depresses the trigger it will go off.

On the single action 1911 without the safety on and the hammer fully cocked it requires that the trigger be fully pulled and the grip safety fully depressed for the gun to fire. Same with the XD.

A common ND with the Glock is that folks shoot themselves while reholstering because either the finger or part of the holster "gets in the trigger guard".

So as folks here have said best to keep things out of the trigger guard.

But it is an extra margin of safety that makes it wise to use the external safety on a gun that has one while carrying it and disengage it when you are ready to shoot. The point of a single action gun is to provide the advantage of a short and light trigger pull. This comes usually at the expense of having an external safety of some sort. So carrying a cocked single action pistol (or a da/sa gun cocked) about without the safety engaged is like carrying a cocked revolver, not a good idea.

tipoc

dayman · February 1, 2013, 11:59 AM

If I'm reading the question right I think Mike had it.
A gun firing in SA - whether it's SAO or DA/SA - is going to have a very short pull where as a gun firing in DA is going to have a longer pull. 1911 trigger's for instance have an almost unnoticeable amount of travel.

It's going to be harder to unintentionally apply the hypothetical 5.5lbs to a DA trigger for it's entire length of pull than it is to bump a SA trigger with the 5.5lbs.

Guns with relatively short and light DA (or whatever they are) triggers (glocks and the like) mitigate the risk by having passive safeties that make it harder for the trigger to be pulled unintentionally, or in some cases (like the M&P line) they give you the option to have a mechanical safety as well.

jib · February 1, 2013, 03:34 PM

Exceptions:

The Bersa BP9cc is DAO. The first pull is quite long, but the reset is no more than 1/8 inch and the trigger pull is somewhere in the 3-4 pound range.

You really need to dig in and learn the details. I would not own a true DOA pistol. I don't like long or hard triggers, but I love the one on the Bersa.

January 30, 2013, 07:00 PM	#1
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	C&L vs striker safety? I could use a bit of clarity on this. Say you have three trigger types. DAO, SAO, DA striker with trigger face safety. All have equal pull force, 5.5lb. Everyone says it's absolutely mandatory to keep the SAO with safety on. Now all things being equal, if something gets in the trigger guard and more than 5.5lb of force is put on it, it'll fire. I guess what I'm asking, why is safety use on SAO pistols mandatory? It could just as easily happen on the other trigger types.

January 30, 2013, 07:17 PM	#2
MTSCMike Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2011 Location: Middle TN Posts: 164	With very few exceptions, the trigger stroke on DAO and, to a lesser degree, striker fired pistols is longer than that of a SAO pistol. DAO pistols require a rather long trigger pull so "accidently" pulling the trigger is more difficult even if the pull weight required is the same. Since striker fired guns have somewhat shorter trigger strokes they usually have a safety built into the trigger to ensure it only moves when pulled by the trigger finger. The only true safety is the shooter...keep your finger off the trigger unless you intend to fire. __________________ IDPA Member A00640 Founding Charter Member - Middle Tennessee Shooter's Club

January 31, 2013, 12:05 AM	#4
bigghoss Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2006 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Posts: 2,664	I think MTSCMike pretty much nailed it. In the OP's hypothetical, all three triggers have the same weight of pull however typically a SAO pistol or a DA in SA mode is probably 4.5 lbs and some are even less. Even if they are the same weight they behave differently, as Mike mentioned, some having shorter, smoother pulls than others. __________________ I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.

February 1, 2013, 11:59 AM	#10
dayman Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: The Woods Posts: 1,197	If I'm reading the question right I think Mike had it. A gun firing in SA - whether it's SAO or DA/SA - is going to have a very short pull where as a gun firing in DA is going to have a longer pull. 1911 trigger's for instance have an almost unnoticeable amount of travel. It's going to be harder to unintentionally apply the hypothetical 5.5lbs to a DA trigger for it's entire length of pull than it is to bump a SA trigger with the 5.5lbs. Guns with relatively short and light DA (or whatever they are) triggers (glocks and the like) mitigate the risk by having passive safeties that make it harder for the trigger to be pulled unintentionally, or in some cases (like the M&P line) they give you the option to have a mechanical safety as well. __________________ si vis pacem para bellum

January 30, 2013, 11:45 PM	#3
jimbob24 Member Join Date: January 29, 2013 Location: vt Posts: 41	Here's an example, the Beretta 92A1 is DA/SA. After the slide is racked the first shot is like 12 or so pounds of trigger force (don't quote me on that)...(assuming you dont cock the hammer back manually) after that first round, trigger pull is practically nothing! 4 pounds or so. It takes very little to pull that trigger. Personally i would never carry my 92 in SA. Too paranoid. But carrying the xd9 sc with one in the chamber, doesn't bother me a bit. Its got the back strap safety and the trigger safety. It could fall to the ground and I'd have enough confidence that she wouldn't go off. All depends on the gun I suppose... Hope I could help!

February 1, 2013, 03:34 PM	#11
jib Member Join Date: May 31, 2012 Location: Seattle-ish Posts: 59	Exceptions: The Bersa BP9cc is DAO. The first pull is quite long, but the reset is no more than 1/8 inch and the trigger pull is somewhere in the 3-4 pound range. You really need to dig in and learn the details. I would not own a true DOA pistol. I don't like long or hard triggers, but I love the one on the Bersa.