Magnum Caliber SMG?

stonewall50 · February 16, 2016, 12:29 PM

I am just wondering if any exist? I understand that it has been eclipsed by SBR ARs and .223s. I am just wondering what else is out there. The idea of a .44 mag or .357 mag SMG is cool to me. Anyone?

shooterdownunder · February 16, 2016, 02:39 PM

A quick google only came back with two 22 mag ones. Couldn't find anything bigger and can't say i've ever heard of any.

stonewall50 · February 16, 2016, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shooterdownunder

A quick google only came back with two 22 mag ones. Couldn't find anything bigger and can't say i've ever heard of any.

That is exactly what I saw. And I'm honestly surprised. I think the idea is cool. At least cool enough to make one. Not enough to be a staple of any army or police force. But still enough to sell. I mean...imagine the marketing? The mp357 or UMPmagnum or uzi mag? Lol. Mac Mag!

kilimanjaro · February 16, 2016, 03:25 PM

The money it would cost to design, tool up, and prototype just one of these would be more than the civilian market could fund.

If it was even legal, didn't the 1986 law shut the registry, no more full autos?

Let's not get into the controllability of such a thing when fired....

TheDevilThatYouKnow · February 16, 2016, 04:07 PM

Do you consider 10mm a 'Magnum' in contrast to it's lower power little brother the .40S&W?

hartcreek · February 16, 2016, 04:43 PM

Maybe you guys should drink some coffee before you start posting here cause even I remember the SAIGA shot gun.

Is that magnum enough for you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxslOcJ9M3s

Aikibiker · February 16, 2016, 05:10 PM

A Sig MPX gen 2 with a .357 Sig barrel and registered drop in auto sear or lightening link would probably be the closest you could get legally. I know the MPX uses an AR fire control group so that should work as long as the bolt carrier will trip or can be made to trip the auto sear.

shooterdownunder · February 16, 2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

If it was even legal, didn't the 1986 law shut the registry, no more full autos?

Only to private citizens.

P71pilot · February 16, 2016, 09:11 PM

There is a 10mm mp5

And the UMP comes in .45acp

If you know about the .460 rowland........

You could modify/strengthen a .45acp subgun to shoot .460 rowland. The .460R uses a case 1/16" longer than .45acp but the brass is much stronger and can handle much higher pressures. Overall length is the same. Can do roughly 250gr at 1350fps. Which is some serious power from such a small package. You can use the same magazines, would have to extend chamber and make sure chamber/barrel/bolt is strong enough. Increase the lockup time and any springs. Delay rate of fire. Imagine a grease gun or UMP45 shooting a 300gr bullet at 1100fps and at about 600rpm

RJay · February 16, 2016, 09:37 PM

Sorry, I've fired the Grease gun and AR 15 and I can't imagine firing them in 10MM or 460 Rowland. Makes me cringe just to think about such a thing.

Theohazard · February 16, 2016, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonewall50

That is exactly what I saw. And I'm honestly surprised.

I'm not surprised at all. Think about the purpose of most SMGs: A compact, lightweight, durable, shoulder-fired, select-fire carbine that is easily controlled under full-auto fire. Once you start going to bigger calibers, controllability gets much more difficult, size and weight go up, and long-term durability goes down. Not to mention the lower reliability of a rimmed .357 or .44 Mag cartridge.

stonewall50 · February 16, 2016, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilThatYouKnow

Do you consider 10mm a 'Magnum' in contrast to it's lower power little brother the .40S&W?

I sort of do. The 10mm was a lovely caliber. Too bad it wasn't successful

stonewall50 · February 16, 2016, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hartcreek

Maybe you guys should drink some coffee before you start posting here cause even I remember the SAIGA shot gun.

Is that magnum enough for you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxslOcJ9M3s

Meh. I don't count shotguns lol.

Jim Watson · February 17, 2016, 01:26 AM

1923 "Military" Thompson SMG for the .45 Remington-Thompson.
A 250 gr bullet at 1450 fps, but the barrel was longer than the standard 1921's 10.5 inches.

Mobuck · February 17, 2016, 07:01 AM

Two things from the OP: "Magnum" cartridges are going to require more weight and/or strength in lots of parts or some sort of "locked breech" design. Rimmed handgun cases are a real non-starter for such an application.

stonewall50 · February 17, 2016, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobuck

Two things from the OP: "Magnum" cartridges are going to require more weight and/or strength in lots of parts or some sort of "locked breech" design. Rimmed handgun cases are a real non-starter for such an application.

That is what I don't understand. The rimmed case is the problem? How come?

Ricklin · February 17, 2016, 09:15 AM

Well we could start with "rim lock" rimmed cartridges in a stacked magazine are problematic.
If the rim of a cartridge gets behind the rim of the cartridge directly below it the cartridge "rim locks" in the magazine, tying up the gun.

stonewall50 · February 17, 2016, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricklin

Well we could start with "rim lock" rimmed cartridges in a stacked magazine are problematic.

If the rim of a cartridge gets behind the rim of the cartridge directly below it the cartridge "rim locks" in the magazine, tying up the gun.

See. I didn't know that. I still only have a basic knowledge of firearms. What other problems would there be?

Model12Win · February 17, 2016, 06:55 PM

The closest thing would be the Heckler and Koch MP5 in 10 miker miker.

I have often thought a .50 AE SMG would be great. Something like a gas operated SBR AR-15 with a double stack 20-30 round mag. Should be doable.

CaptainO · February 18, 2016, 01:56 AM

Don't say the 10mm is dead, because it isn't true. The Feds had an MP10. the delayed action helped make the subgun somewhat controllable. A Magnum caliber subgun is not really practical.

I have been shooting for about 55 years (since the age of six). Father was a member of the Navy's Underwater Demolition Team and the Navy Rifle Team. As the son of a man with many years of firearms experience, he never really cared much for fully automatic weapons fire, preferring marksmanship over suppressive fire. He could do things with a rifle you would scarcely believe!

Having literally learned these lessons at "daddy's knee" from ages six through eighteen, I have gathered that strings of fully automatic fire have limited logistic purposes. father taught me that burts of between three and five rounds are the most effective, before "muzzle climb" raises the rounds into the air and over the target.

In my humble opinion, two rounds of magnum ammunition (at the absolute most) can be placed on target effectively.

Skans · February 18, 2016, 09:04 AM

I think the KRISS is supposed to come out with a 10mm version this year. If they do, I'm sure they will make a full-auto version - it just won't be available to us.

stonewall50 · February 18, 2016, 12:18 PM

I guess I can dream. It would be interesting. My cousin had a .357 mag lever action rifle. I always consider It the SMG of lever guns.

stonewall50 · February 19, 2016, 08:57 AM

How about a .454 Casull? Looking it doesn't seem rimmed and there was a semi auto in that caliber at one point I believe.

Jim Watson · February 19, 2016, 10:48 AM

Things are not always as they seem. The .454 Casull is definitely a rimmed cartridge. Not a very wide rim because, like its ancestor the .45 Colt, it doesn't take much rim to hold headspace in a rod ejection revolver. I don't know of a semiauto .454 but there might be one lurking out there. The Desert Eagle is made in magnums and .45 Colt... but nobody makes extension magazines for its rimmed calibers.

A SMG in a magnum caliber gives you Jeff Cooper's "Thumper"... if you leave it on semi.

Sharkbite · February 19, 2016, 02:13 PM

I always thought an MP5 in 357 Sig would be a pretty nice pkg. Just rebarrel one of the 40sw ones and get to shooting.

The longer barrel of the MP5 would get that bullet really moving.

True 357 MAG ballistics with burst or full auto capabilities. Sounds like a winner to me

February 16, 2016, 12:29 PM	#1
stonewall50 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 668	Magnum Caliber SMG? I am just wondering if any exist? I understand that it has been eclipsed by SBR ARs and .223s. I am just wondering what else is out there. The idea of a .44 mag or .357 mag SMG is cool to me. Anyone?

February 16, 2016, 05:10 PM	#7
Aikibiker Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2002 Posts: 181	A Sig MPX gen 2 with a .357 Sig barrel and registered drop in auto sear or lightening link would probably be the closest you could get legally. I know the MPX uses an AR fire control group so that should work as long as the bolt carrier will trip or can be made to trip the auto sear. __________________ __________________________ ~Joel TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!

February 16, 2016, 09:11 PM	#9
P71pilot Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2014 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 728	There is a 10mm mp5 And the UMP comes in .45acp If you know about the .460 rowland........ You could modify/strengthen a .45acp subgun to shoot .460 rowland. The .460R uses a case 1/16" longer than .45acp but the brass is much stronger and can handle much higher pressures. Overall length is the same. Can do roughly 250gr at 1350fps. Which is some serious power from such a small package. You can use the same magazines, would have to extend chamber and make sure chamber/barrel/bolt is strong enough. Increase the lockup time and any springs. Delay rate of fire. Imagine a grease gun or UMP45 shooting a 300gr bullet at 1100fps and at about 600rpm __________________ Without the 2nd amendment, all other rights would not exist

February 16, 2016, 09:37 PM	#10
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Sorry, I've fired the Grease gun and AR 15 and I can't imagine firing them in 10MM or 460 Rowland. Makes me cringe just to think about such a thing. __________________ Ron James

February 17, 2016, 09:15 AM	#17
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	Rim Lock Well we could start with "rim lock" rimmed cartridges in a stacked magazine are problematic. If the rim of a cartridge gets behind the rim of the cartridge directly below it the cartridge "rim locks" in the magazine, tying up the gun. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

February 16, 2016, 02:39 PM	#2
shooterdownunder Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Location: sydney Posts: 135	A quick google only came back with two 22 mag ones. Couldn't find anything bigger and can't say i've ever heard of any.

February 16, 2016, 03:25 PM	#4
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	The money it would cost to design, tool up, and prototype just one of these would be more than the civilian market could fund. If it was even legal, didn't the 1986 law shut the registry, no more full autos? Let's not get into the controllability of such a thing when fired....

February 16, 2016, 04:07 PM	#5
TheDevilThatYouKnow Member Join Date: November 22, 2015 Posts: 89	Do you consider 10mm a 'Magnum' in contrast to it's lower power little brother the .40S&W?

February 16, 2016, 04:43 PM	#6
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	Maybe you guys should drink some coffee before you start posting here cause even I remember the SAIGA shot gun. Is that magnum enough for you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxslOcJ9M3s

February 17, 2016, 01:26 AM	#14
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	1923 "Military" Thompson SMG for the .45 Remington-Thompson. A 250 gr bullet at 1450 fps, but the barrel was longer than the standard 1921's 10.5 inches.

February 17, 2016, 07:01 AM	#15
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Two things from the OP: "Magnum" cartridges are going to require more weight and/or strength in lots of parts or some sort of "locked breech" design. Rimmed handgun cases are a real non-starter for such an application.

February 17, 2016, 06:55 PM	#19
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	The closest thing would be the Heckler and Koch MP5 in 10 miker miker. I have often thought a .50 AE SMG would be great. Something like a gas operated SBR AR-15 with a double stack 20-30 round mag. Should be doable. Last edited by Model12Win; February 17, 2016 at 11:20 PM.

February 18, 2016, 01:56 AM	#20
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	Don't say the 10mm is dead, because it isn't true. The Feds had an MP10. the delayed action helped make the subgun somewhat controllable. A Magnum caliber subgun is not really practical. I have been shooting for about 55 years (since the age of six). Father was a member of the Navy's Underwater Demolition Team and the Navy Rifle Team. As the son of a man with many years of firearms experience, he never really cared much for fully automatic weapons fire, preferring marksmanship over suppressive fire. He could do things with a rifle you would scarcely believe! Having literally learned these lessons at "daddy's knee" from ages six through eighteen, I have gathered that strings of fully automatic fire have limited logistic purposes. father taught me that burts of between three and five rounds are the most effective, before "muzzle climb" raises the rounds into the air and over the target. In my humble opinion, two rounds of magnum ammunition (at the absolute most) can be placed on target effectively.

February 18, 2016, 09:04 AM	#21
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I think the KRISS is supposed to come out with a 10mm version this year. If they do, I'm sure they will make a full-auto version - it just won't be available to us.

February 18, 2016, 12:18 PM	#22
stonewall50 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 668	I guess I can dream. It would be interesting. My cousin had a .357 mag lever action rifle. I always consider It the SMG of lever guns.

February 19, 2016, 08:57 AM	#23
stonewall50 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 668	How about a .454 Casull? Looking it doesn't seem rimmed and there was a semi auto in that caliber at one point I believe.

February 19, 2016, 10:48 AM	#24
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	Things are not always as they seem. The .454 Casull is definitely a rimmed cartridge. Not a very wide rim because, like its ancestor the .45 Colt, it doesn't take much rim to hold headspace in a rod ejection revolver. I don't know of a semiauto .454 but there might be one lurking out there. The Desert Eagle is made in magnums and .45 Colt... but nobody makes extension magazines for its rimmed calibers. A SMG in a magnum caliber gives you Jeff Cooper's "Thumper"... if you leave it on semi.

February 19, 2016, 02:13 PM	#25
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	I always thought an MP5 in 357 Sig would be a pretty nice pkg. Just rebarrel one of the 40sw ones and get to shooting. The longer barrel of the MP5 would get that bullet really moving. True 357 MAG ballistics with burst or full auto capabilities. Sounds like a winner to me