July 19, 2005, 05:51 AM | #26 | |
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July 19, 2005, 07:05 AM | #27 |
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Well, considering you live near the semi-perennial murder capitol of the US - unless you live in Virginia, how often do you hear about defensive shootings in the first place, let alone the years-later legal aftermath? And if you live in Virginia where self-defense isn't prohibited, perhaps you don't have the kind of prosecutors that exist in other, more benighted areas of the country.
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July 19, 2005, 07:21 AM | #28 |
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I agree with Ayoob on one point....
Some lawyer can/probably will do anything to cast your defensive actions in a bad light....especially in the event of a civil case. However...if you are justified in shooting.....where your bullets hit is unlikely to be an issue |
July 19, 2005, 08:43 AM | #29 |
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Your heart's a thumpen, your adrenal is pumpin, you knees aquaken, your hand is shanken........How many can hit a six inch circle moving at a high rate of speed toward you at 5 yards under those circumstances ??? Center mass and the perp don't last......IMHO of course..
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July 19, 2005, 08:48 AM | #30 |
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Ayoob has served as an expert witness on a long list of civil and criminal prosecutions regarding defensive force, so I suspect that he could back up what he's saying if he felt comfortable blabbing in public about the specifics of the legal difficulties of the individuals he's worked with.
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Not a blacksmith could be found in the whole land of Israel, because the Philistines had said, "Otherwise the Hebrews will make swords or spears!" 1 Samuel 13:19 |
July 19, 2005, 02:36 PM | #31 | |
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Shield20 said:
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July 19, 2005, 02:42 PM | #32 |
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Been discussed on this forum, thehighroad, glocktalk. Consensus of all intelligent people is that a head shot in the course of defending yourself is legitimate. The "stop" usage by the instructor is a moronic misinterpretation of what 'stop' means.
I've been in LFI-1 and Ayoob never said this. Some gun instructors are ...
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July 19, 2005, 05:01 PM | #33 |
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Head shots malicious?
Nope. Just insurance. If headshots were malicious, why would police firearms instructors teach Failure-to Stop (Mozambique) drills to every academy recruit and veteran officer during in-service quals? Targets are: Computer (brain), Mobility (pelvis), and Lifesupport (vital organs) That's why they's labeled "A" Zone on these areas (pelvic region excepted). Also be aware that Center-of-Mass is also center of target presented, not just a human torso.
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July 19, 2005, 05:15 PM | #34 | ||
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If more laws restricting our rights will make us free from harm, why aren't we safe yet? We are only less free. When faced with impossible overwhelming odds, prudance would dictate the only thing left is to figure out what is possible, and to do it. Punishment for all crimes should increase until the recitivism rate approaches zero. |
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July 19, 2005, 05:57 PM | #35 | |
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Same thing goes for a civil trial. Despite what Masaad Ayoob says, you're a lot less likely to be sued than not after a legitimate self-defense shooting. I'd like to hear see any empirical evidence to the contrary. Lawyers don't like to work for free. If the guy you shoot doesn't have a case, he's not going to get a lawyer on a contingency pay scale. Just don't shoot a rich guy. |
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July 19, 2005, 06:20 PM | #36 |
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Depends on what state you're in, as always.
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July 19, 2005, 07:47 PM | #37 | |||
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Yes, when you are shooting somebody and they fall to the ground, incapacitated, you may not have any more time to deliver more shots. You may have no more time than your first shot. Executing a downed badguy who is not a threat to you at the current time is a vigilante act and is illegal. Then again, you may put 9 rounds into a guy's chest over the course of 30 seconds while the guy continues his attack on you. That is a LOT of time you didn't attempt to shoot him in the head for a CNS shutdown.
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July 19, 2005, 08:09 PM | #38 | |
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Here where I live, even LEOs that are involved with shootings will be reviewed by the DA. (another pet pieve of mine. LEO should answer to citizen councils, but that is whole different topic) What you elude to is the beginning of the trial phase, and in particular is the arraignment, as you stated.
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If more laws restricting our rights will make us free from harm, why aren't we safe yet? We are only less free. When faced with impossible overwhelming odds, prudance would dictate the only thing left is to figure out what is possible, and to do it. Punishment for all crimes should increase until the recitivism rate approaches zero. |
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July 19, 2005, 08:47 PM | #39 | ||||
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July 20, 2005, 03:36 AM | #40 |
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Bullets; whether one or a dozen, whether they are marketed under the name of "Surgeon's Nightmare", or "Recovery Friendly", whether aimed at the big toe or the brain ... are considered deadly force.
If you are justified in using deadly force, a bullet in the brain or the upper spine (both quite likely to cause death) is your best bet - if you can do it. |
July 20, 2005, 05:52 AM | #41 | ||
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Shooting is deadly force, whether you shoot to maim, stop, kill, scare, whatever you say, if you shoot the gun at the person that is posing the threat to you, you are employing deadly force there is nothing more excessive. If deadly force is justified I am going to shoot because I am going to live through the situation. I am going to see my family again, I am going to feed my dogs again, I am going to work, sleep, eat dinner, etc... All that said it is possible the BG will live, sue you, the DA may be a gun grabber, the local police chief may not like "uppity citizens" whatever. In my mind none of that matters if somebody is about to hurt my family or me. All that other crap can be dealt with. I am prepared and willing to do what has to be done to protect my family and myself from death or grave bodily harm head shot, center of mass shot, whatever. |
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July 20, 2005, 06:01 AM | #42 | |
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I would perhaps suggest that as you don't seem to recognize that homicide, and manslaughter are capital crimes which will be investigated, that you remember what a once wise man proclaimed. "The man that would have himself as a lawyer, has a fool for a client". I will take comfort in knowing that I, for one, won't take such an obtuse approach to legal dealings should I ever find myself in this situation.
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If more laws restricting our rights will make us free from harm, why aren't we safe yet? We are only less free. When faced with impossible overwhelming odds, prudance would dictate the only thing left is to figure out what is possible, and to do it. Punishment for all crimes should increase until the recitivism rate approaches zero. |
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July 20, 2005, 08:12 AM | #43 |
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In NY, "in any prosecution for an offense, justification as defined in sections... is A DEFENSE.
ALSO though "...conduct which would otherwise consititute an offense is justifiable AND NOT CRIMINAL when:"...standard SD stuff... Seems it could go two ways - get charged with an offense (probably 1st degree assault) and show/prove justifcation as a defense in court; OR have it investigated/seen as justifiable in which case no criminal action has taken place in the 1st place. Last edited by shield20; July 20, 2005 at 09:01 AM. |
July 20, 2005, 12:36 PM | #44 | |
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Simply, his statements are the same as the cops who taught my CCW class. Personally, I'm going to listen to what the people that would be arresting me are going to say about what i can and can't do. |
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July 20, 2005, 01:23 PM | #45 |
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One of the specific instance Ayoob aluded to is where a person used deadly force to stop a stomping attack by a group against himself and his brother. When questioned about why he used deadly force, he stated that "he didn't want to get his butt kicked." Unfortunately, his attorney didn't follow up by talking about disparity of force, the serious and life threatening injuries that can come from "getting one's butt kicked" etc. The jury was left with the defendent stating that he didn't want to get beat up so he shot someone. Bad witness prep, bad lawyer, bad result. Happens all the time in non-defensive shooting cases, so why should it be a surprise it happens here?
If I'm ever in a shooting, whether or not I will face charges depends on how the investigator, the prosecutor and the public sees the shooting. It's only a good shoot if a reasonable person would find it as such. It's my job to start the ball rolling for such a determination by explaining why I shot, and why it was reasonable. I can easily articulate why a head shot is a valid and justifiable technique, and that it is taught by the best instructors (including those who probably taught the cop doing the investigation). |
July 20, 2005, 02:00 PM | #46 |
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Buzz,
Who would you explain this to? Ayoob also suggests shutting up until your lawyer is present. Others have said being in the right and explainign that right off the bat makes you a "good guy" and may get the cops/investigators on your side 'quickly'. In general: Would you (any 'you' out there) take the stand if charged? |
July 20, 2005, 02:47 PM | #47 | |
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Step 1: "Officer, this man attacked me and tried to kill me. I shot him because I was in fear for my life. I will press charges." Step 2: "These people were standing here when it happened, his gun/knife fell there, and mine is here." Step 3: "I hope you understand but I just went through something traumatic. Please call an ambulance. I'll cooperate fully after I get checked out." Step 4: shut up and call an attorney. |
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July 20, 2005, 03:09 PM | #48 | |||
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Secondly, I would suggest that since you seem to like to just throw around words, the meaning of which you don't know, you should post the elements for the crime "Manslaughter". THEN, post the maximum sentence. THEN, tell me in what state of the union the crime of "Manslaughter" is punishable by death. You DO know what the term "capital crimes" means don't you? MANSLAUGHTER IS NOT A CAPITAL CRIME ANYWHERE IN THIS NATION!!! Quote:
Last edited by FrankDrebin; July 20, 2005 at 05:15 PM. |
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July 20, 2005, 03:15 PM | #49 | |
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By the way, there is something majorly wrong with your proposition. By definition, a legitimate self-defense shooter is someone who's shooting has been determined is legitimate. It's the effective equivalent of saying "ask a sex crimes cop how many times a partner to a perfectly consentual sexual act has been charged with a sex crime." Actually, the answer to that is more than a few, but I digress. |
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July 20, 2005, 03:33 PM | #50 | |||||
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OK, then I'll contend that you are not likely to be charged with a crime when you shoot someone who you reasonably believe to be about to cause you great bodily harm or death. Nor are you likely to be sued. This applies to "normal" people and not those who shoot someone for looking at them funny and then claim self defense. The number of people who are charged because their idea of "reasonable" differs from the prosecutor's is too small to change my position. We could go through the newspapers and post cases where a shooter claimed self-defense and determine if our idea of "reasonable" is the same as theirs. I think you'll find that anecdotally, you are not likely to be charged in self defense shooting. I'll even go one step further and say that in MI, you will not be charged for shooting a fleeing felon. This does not mean that the fleeing felon must be tried and convicted by jury between the time he commits his felony and the time you shoot him. I'll go first....Also, this article is appropriate to the "shooting better than the cops" thread. The person in this story was not charged. Quote:
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if anything, I thought he helped the prosecution. (he was hired by the defense). Caveat: I never said that Ayoob said that people are LIKELY to be prosecuted and sued after a self-defense shooting. I'm just taking the word of the Ayoobian disciple who SAID he said that. But...if he DID say that, he's wrong and I'll back it up if anyone wants to go somewhere where gambling is legal and put up some dough! My definition of "likely" is : "1 : having a high probability of occurring or being true : very probable"" Quote:
Last edited by FrankDrebin; July 20, 2005 at 04:27 PM. |
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