range day disappointments

[tahunua001]

hello all.
even though this is about both rifles and pistols I figured I'd post this experience here and let the MODs bicker about who has to babysit
having a 4 day weekend thrown in my lap and nothing to do with myself, I decided to go to my local indoor range with a buddy of mine and just work off range rentals.

first up was the FN Herstal FS2000. I have been entertaining the idea of getting a bullpup rifle for years and on many occassions they have slipped their way into my "Hairbrained Idear of the Day". after extensive research I found that the FS2000 is the most heavily reccommended bullpup on the market so I was overcome with joy when I saw it on the ranges rental roster. after getting it to the range I noted that even though it was quite compact and ergonomic the controls were incredibly different from any rifle I've had the pleasure of shooting. the safety is mounted inside the triggerguard and the mag release, was difficult to locate in all that plastic. it shot like a dream but the aperture on the rear sight is literally smaller in diameter than your average toothpick, even in the low light evironment of the indoor range it was next to impossible to get a sight picture. in addition the trigger is a half inch wide chunk of plastic with an overly long pull that I found hideous. FN took the time of making a well built, compact and sturdy design but completely botched the two most important parts when it comes to accuracy. me and my buddy gave up after a single box of ammo and exchanged it for a bushmaster "M4" so we could shoot up the rest of our 223 we bought.

then my buddy suggested that we get a handgun so I went and got the only handgun that we had never rented before: the Sig 226. I know I give Sig owners a lot of guff on here so I was feeling a little hypocritical when I started trying to make an unbiased opinion about this gun. even though it was a bit heavier than the polymer pistols I use and love and the grip texture was a little overly agressive for my liking, the grips fit my hand extremely well. I never fired it in double action but single action trigger was smooth and very light. as customary I set my "5, 6" paper plates target" at 7 yards to gauge how I interact with a new pistol and about pooped myself when every shot hit dead center on each plate. even at the range max of 25 yards I was hitting those targets with almost boring efficiency. ok Sig Guys, I will lighten up a bit, I've finally found one that I like. unfortunately even with decocker, there is no safety beyond keeping my finger off the trigger so even though it's a little more safe than a glock, I still would not feel safe owning one and $800-ish pricing it's a bit above my normal range for handguns.

last in the pistol department my buddy asked me to rent a 45ACP so I took the sig back and got the only 45 that they had that wasn't in use at the moment: RIA 45 GI. I'd rented this gun from this range before and experienced utter defeat. this gun failed to enter battery about twice every mag regardless of grip, the other 3 shooters in my group had it FTEB on almost every shot. I exchanged it for a second and it also had the same problem, the ranges excuse was that they hadn't been cleaned that week. well on this trip the clerk actually had to wipe this one down because it had just been cleaned and had been heavily lubed. my friend, who had been with me the last time we got a 1911 here groaned when I walked in but we decided to give this one a chance since it was freshly maintained. well... no FTEBs but the trigger just felt odd. I was getting about average handgun accuracy(for me it's about 4-6 inches at 10 yards) but it seemed that the trigger broke early and full stop was where I'm used to normal break point. I have also been entertaining the idea of a 1911 in my collection for some time but I think at this point I'm just too used to the so called "toy triggers" to be of much use with a "mans gun". also even when fully lubed as it was the slide was operating lethargically and I actually found myself shooting faster than the slide could operate.


just before packing up I struck up a conversation with a retired navy chaplain who had his mosin nagant 91/30 there and he was gracious enough to let me and my friend each shoot 5 rounds from it. I have been entertaining the idea of getting a pair of 9130s and sporting one of them and leaving the other military but after shooting this I would say that would probably be a waste of time and money. even though I loved the kickk and I still plan on getting 1 for a cheap plinker it it just too long and probably require a barrel chop(which is a lot of expensive work for a $100 rifle) and the bolt is just so cheezey that I almost started laughing trying to cycle it. I've found myself talking about my enfield NO4 a lot whenever mosin threads pop up here but now that I've shot both the comparison just seems obsurd.

all in all I had a lot of preconceptions about a lot of guns shattered by a single trip to the range... ignorance is bliss.

[Dino.]

A bad day at the range is still better than a good day at work, IMO.

[tahunua001]

you can say that again, I still had fun shooting all those guns...I also shot an HK USC but with the gung ho HK fans out there I felt it was better to leave that evaluation out of the story haha.

[5RWill]

Bullpups designs are known for horrible triggers. Could've saved you the ammo there. I'm not a big bullpup guy myself.

I can't answer for the handguns i'm new myself to that department.

[loose_holster_dan]

bullpup triggers are awful. the one that came in my msar was really bad. i installed a piece that was supposed to lighten it up a little. it does that fairly well, but it also fails to reset a lot. i'm seriously thinking about getting ratworx new trigger pack that lets you use AR parts. it's supposed to give you breaks at 4.5-6lbs (much better than 9lb). a little pricey tho at $230. save for the trigger tho, this gun is awesome! even with the trigger, it's so much easier to be on target for multiple shots while on the run.



also love both of my p226's. absolutely love that srt trigger on my uspsa model. i was holding better groups than my buddy's wilson combat 1911's the other day.

[geetarman]

I had a really good morning at the range today even though it was windy.

I had a Smith and Wesson 1911E, Ruger SR1911 that had both been tweaked by the range gunsmith last week.

Both guns ran flawlessly today. 9 magazines through the Ruger and 6 through the Smith.

Also had a Dan Wesson PM9 for the first outing and ran 100 rounds through it without a hiccup. THAT gun is something else.

A bad day at the range IS better than the best day at work but a GOOD day at the range is WONDERFUL!!

I do love retirement.

Geetarman

[loose_holster_dan]

you liked the pm9 huh? i keep hearing bad things about them. i almost jumped on one the other day, but the threads talked me out of it. wasn't that a bob serva design?

[geetarman]

I have never heard a bad thing about the PM9. I shot one a year ago and have been trying to get one since. Match barrel, forged frame and slide.

Are you sure we are talking about the same gun?

CZ custom shop received 10 of them when I got the call. I called and asked them to set one aside. By the time I got there, 4 had been sold and I got the 5th.

I talked to one of the factory shooters this m orning at the range and there were two left.

It is an impressive gun.

Geetarman

[tahunua001]

Are you sure we are talking about the same gun?

IIRC Kahr also has a gun with the model PM9, Kahr's kind of notorious for hit and miss QC. people usually have good things to say about dan wesson guns.

like I said, the FS2000 was a very comfortable gun to shoot and with a little more familiarity the controls would be no issue for me and simply adding a $40 red dot would solve the sights problem but I guess I figured that a gun that's $1500-2100 they could have at least taken the time to get everything right. with the amount of plastic on that gun I'm sure it doesn't cost that much to make.

[kmaysob]

geetarman you wernt by chance at usery pass yesterday were you?

i went to the range yesterday as well, way to windy. couldnt keep targets on the holders, holders were being blown over, ect. i got out at about 7 thinking id have a nice morning without all the other people there. its a little hard to sight in a new rifle when the target keeps moving

[RC20]

then my buddy suggested that we get a handgun so I went and got the only handgun that we had never rented before: the Sig 226. I know I give Sig owners a lot of guff on here so I was feeling a little hypocritical when I started trying to make an unbiased opinion about this gun. even though it was a bit heavier than the polymer pistols I use and love and the grip texture was a little overly agressive for my liking, the grips fit my hand extremely well. I never fired it in double action but single action trigger was smooth and very light. as customary I set my "5, 6" paper plates target" at 7 yards to gauge how I interact with a new pistol and about pooped myself when every shot hit dead center on each plate. even at the range max of 25 yards I was hitting those targets with almost boring efficiency. ok Sig Guys, I will lighten up a bit, I've finally found one that I like. unfortunately even with decocker, there is no safety beyond keeping my finger off the trigger so even though it's a little more safe than a glock, I still would not feel safe owning one and $800-ish pricing it's a bit above my normal range for handguns.

I grew up with DA revolvers so in that aspect this is no different. Mostly I shot my revolvers SA, tend to do that with the Sig (try an SP2022 if you get a chance, cost is good at around $400 and the trigger is decent at least to my less than sensitive hands)

I was surprised at how well the Sig shot after a lot of years not shooting pistols due to my eyes not being able to focus on the irons (I got a laser so I can take the irons out of the equation). Sigs are good shooting guns. HK P30 is worth a try as well though that is up in the $850 range.

Had to laugh on the MN. My dad got me one as a kid, removed the firing pin and that was my "toy gun. After some thought I was also told never to point it at anyone! Ok, what aprt of toy gun do you not understand? One of those things that had to be cheap surplus and he got it without thinking it through (not like him but we all do it sometimes). He realized it was too much like a real gun and bad discipline. So, it became a BAR in my mind and it got pointed in general direction but never at one of my brothers. Still have it. Yep, cheezy. I saw an intact one the other day and thought I would try it. Will stick to the 1903s for fun guns.

On the other hand I tried a Enfield action the other day. Seems to be one of those turning an oddity (cocking on the close) into a feature. Probably could get used to it, but the 1903 sure seems to be far better! My take is that an equally well trained person could fire as fast or faster with a Mauser action as you could with the Enfield. I can see it being a intriguing gun on its quirkiness. Maybe a bit like a Bullpup, grow up with it and its seems normal!

[KyJim]

tahunua001--

Is your shift key key broken? It looked like it could be an interesting post but it's too much trouble to read.

BTW, I am no language Nazi but forum rule #4 states, in part:

4. Mangling of the English language whether through ignorance, age, sloth or intent diminishes and embarrasses each of us, and is disrespectful to the reading membership.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/faq....aq_forum_rules

[geetarman]

kmaysob,

Sure was. I normally shoot at table 17. It was windy there, but I had a great time. I usually shoot there on Friday and get there early.

I hope you had as good a time as I did.

What were you shooting?

I will probably be out again on Friday. Feel free to come down and introduce yourself. I don't bite and what with us all being armed, most are downright polite

Geetarman

[kmaysob]

tahunua001--

Is your shift key key broken? It looked like it could be an interesting post but it's too much trouble to read.

BTW, I am no language Nazi but forum rule #4 states, in part:


jmho , but it sounds like your just too lazy to try and read it. i read it no problem. in fact, its much more broken up than alot of the posts on here. seems like it probably took more time to find the rules and make a post about how hard it is to read, than it would have taken to just read it in the first place.

[tahunua001]

KyJim,
My shift key is not broken. I just choose to focus on spelling and punctuation and forget that my web browser does not auto shift. I'm sorry if my choice to disregard proper grammar has caused you undue distress. I do wonder though how far you read into the OP before you got aggravated enough to skip the discussion completely and spend the next 5 minutes cutting and pasting TFL guidelines.

Also, I would consider "mangling" as far more than just failure to capitalize. when yall decyde that it gets to mangled i gess i cood take a refresher corse since I still got them books leftover from when i gots my book larnin at home

[loose_holster_dan]

to get back to the subject of the pm9, yes i am talking about the dan wesson point man 9. i had heard that the earlier models such as the pm9 did not hold up to newer models like the valor.

[geetarman]

I do not know about earlier models. I shot one last year that is owned by one of the CZ factory shooters and that gun had about 2500 rounds through it.

The slide felt like it was on rollers. The trigger was about 2.5 lbs and no creep or overtravel.

The guy who owns the gun told me the only issue he has had with the gun was shooting some of the reloads CZ does for practice ammunition. Some of it was trimmed short and the guns jammed.

He told me his has never jammed with factory rounds.

I only have about 100 rounds through mine so the jury is out.

Build wise, the gun is impressive.

Slide is forged and is serialized to the forged frame and hand fitted.

I have never shot a better constructed pistol. I do remember shooting one a couple of years ago that belonged to a Sig factory rep. I do not know all the particulars but I do remember it was a Caspian frame and had a lot of extras.


I remember it being an outstanding gun and would need to put it side to side with this one to do a valid comparison.

I have a P229 that is also very good as well as a CZ SP01 that Angus and crew worked on.

Outstanding gun but is not finished as nicely as the PM9. It did not cost as much as the PM9 either.

I am sure there are better quality guns out there and am pretty sure I will never see or shoot them so any comparison would not be valid.

Some might say if you have only seen calves, you do not know how big a bull is.

Has to be the same with gun quality. Sig makes some top flight guns and I would jump at the chance to shoot one.

I can only report what I have seen and experienced. I did ask three range officers to shoot the gun and they all were impressed.

I would not have expected them to bash the gun but the comments were really very positive.

The other thing is that the CZ shop received 10 and I got to the shop 15 minutes after I got the call and 4 were gone. I got the 5th one and according to the web page, they were out of stock on Friday.

Hope this helps. Maybe I should post a picture or two.

Geetarman

[lee n. field]

just before packing up I struck up a conversation with a retired navy chaplain who had his mosin nagant 91/30 there and he was gracious enough to let me and my friend each shoot 5 rounds from it. I have been entertaining the idea of getting a pair of 91/30s and sporting one of them and leaving the other military but after shooting this I would say that would probably be a waste of time and money. even though I loved the kickk and I still plan on getting 1 for a cheap plinker it it just too long and probably require a barrel chop(which is a lot of expensive work for a $100 rifle)

Just get one of the Mosin-Nagant carbines. M38, M44. Be warned though, the muzzle blast is something to behold.

[tahunua001]

Just get one of the Mosin-Nagant carbines. M38, M44. Be warned though, the muzzle blast is something to behold.

but the carbines are more expensive and the actions are still quite cheezey for a sporter rifle.

[KyJim]

My shift key is not broken.

Okay, I do not want to make a federal case about it.