Mossberg 500 or Remington 870? - Page 2

TMackey · May 17, 2010, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Don't listen to how bad new 870s are. Its straight BS.

You obviously haven't been around a newer express.

namlot1979 · May 17, 2010, 06:01 AM

Getting the mossy myself in a few weeks basically because i prefer the safety postion. i have one of the newer 870 express's and cant say anything bad about it either, i must be one of the rare owners who has never had a problem with my express...i would say that you should hold each gun and see what fits you better and which controls you are more comfortable with. either gun is going to last your lifetime so you might as well be comfortable..and dont get to wrapped up in all the 870 bashing, half those guys dont even own them probably...i own one and it is a great gun that i would recommend to anybody

jmr40 · May 17, 2010, 07:53 AM

Don't let the Remington haters get too you. Both the 870 Express and 500 are budget shotguns. Both companies build the guns to sell at the lowest possible price point. Both companies let sub par guns out the door on occasion. Spend $1,500 on a Beretta if you expect perfection out of the box.

Remingtons have a problem with shells sticking in the chamber. This is usually an easy fix. Mossbergs have a problem with unfired shells dumping on the ground from the magazine. Both companies will make it right if you have a problem.

For a variety of reasons I feel the Remington is the better long term choice of the 2, but the Mossberg has proven to be good enough for what most people use a shotgun for.

As I stated im my 1st post, if you are looking at pure reliability, consider the Benelli Nova. I really think it will prove to be the best of the bunch. We may have to wait 50 years to know for sure.

rc601962 · May 17, 2010, 08:28 AM

JMR40 has made the most ridiculous statement of the entire thread. You shouldn't have to pay $1500 to get a gun that works out of the box. If a company sells a gun to the public, the gun should work. Period. If it doesn't and they know it, that is fraud. Remington knows their guns have rough chambers and other problems. They continue to sell these guns because they have contempt for their customers and basically are stealing from them.

The Remington fan boys have Stockholm Syndrome.

You should "hate" any gun you have to fix to get it running right the first time. If you buy the Remington, you can't say you were not warned.

jmr40 · May 17, 2010, 09:23 AM

And spending the $1,500 will not guarantee you a perfect gun. My point is that they all have issues. I'm not a particular brand loyalist.

rc601962 · May 17, 2010, 10:04 AM

JMR40, this is still a ridiculous premise.

When you exchange money for a product, there is an contract that implies that the product will perform as promised. If this is not the case, the manufacturer owes you a disclaimer before you give them your money.

When you buy a stapler from Walmart, you expect it to function without having to tinker with it. If it doesn't, you return it for a refund.

Remington takes advantage of their customers because they know we can't return a firearm like we can a stapler.

jmr40 · May 17, 2010, 10:14 AM

Pick a product, any product, and you will have issues. Even products with a reputation for reliability can have problems. Just ask Toyota. Remington and Mossberg will both take care of their customers.

And yes you can return the gun if it is not satisfactory. I've had new Smith and Wesson pistols shipped to my door because I bought a lemon and they replaced the gun. And I still purchased other Smith products even though I had a terrrible experience with one of their guns. Most any company will either repair or replace the gun if it is defective.

I've owned seversl 870's, several Mossbergs. Never had any issues with the Remington shotguns. I did have minor issues with the Mossberg. What am I suposed to do when simeone asks my opinion. Tell them the 870 is a POS just because you say so. That has simply not been my experience.

DHart · May 17, 2010, 02:01 PM

Mossberg has built a business and reputation for making good quality, reliable shotguns for a very modest price. They've mastered making good-quality, lower-priced shotguns for a very long time - it is their specialty.

Remington has built a business and reputation for making good quality, reliable shotguns for a higher price. They've got making good-quality, higher-priced shotguns down cold. But they were losing a lot of business to Mossberg due to price. So...

A while back, Remington decided to cut costs and cheapen the build quality of their 870 by coming out with the 870 Express line. Some would argue that Remington may not be as good at making a low priced shotgun as Mossberg is, because Mossberg has mastered that approach from the get go and Remington has tried to get there by cutting costs through cheapening production. I think perhaps Mossberg makes the better grade low priced shotgun and Remington is receiving some bad press because by cheapening their production quality, they are having more issues and complaints with the product.

But all that said... the best way to choose is to handle both and carefully examine what you have to do with your firing hand to operate the controls.

It's like any product... how you operate the product, the user interface itself, how you access and operate the controls, makes the biggest difference from one product to another.

With the Mossberg, you can operate the safety and the slide release without moving your firing hand or trigger finger away from shooting position AT ALL. A very ergonomic, slick set-up.

With Remington, to operate the safety or the slide release, you must move both your firing hand and your trigger finger away from the shooting position. THAT, and the fact that Mossberg's loading gate is unencumbered by the lifter being up and out of the way, are the major factors to consider in your choice.

Either gun is quite likely to work fine for a long time.

jmr40 · May 17, 2010, 05:58 PM

Not understating anything positive you said about the Mossberg. All true. But it is quite simple for either a right or left handed person to operate the 870, (or any other gun with the safety button behind the triggerguard) without moving your hand from the firing position. It can be done with the trigger finger inside the triggerguard ( although I don't recommend it).

For a right handed person, use the middle pad of the trigger finger to disengage the safety. Reach behind the triggerguard with the middle finger to engage. Reverse the process for left handers. You don't even have to reposition your thumb like you do on the Mossberg.

A little awkward the first time you try it, but the safety button behind the trigger guard is the fastest and easiest I've found. If you replace the safety button with an oversize one it is no contest, but the standard button works well also. A key reason why I prefer Benelli over Beretta in auto loaders

The slide release on the 870 cannot be used with the gun in the firing position, but I've yet to find a reason why I would want to do that.

I think Remington would be better off to work on building a better shotgun and let the price fall where ever it does. The basic 870 design is a good and proven design. It is also a fact that it is going to be a more expensive gun to produce. They have tried to cut so many corners to try and match the Mossbergs price that they are letting too many bad guns out.

Most of the problems are cosmetic or very minor ones that can be easily corrected. Still it hurts the reputation of the company and leads some to believe the 870 is junk.

JNewell · May 17, 2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

You obviously haven't been around a newer express.

Quote:

That being said, the new 870 express shotguns that are being sold now are pure cr*p. Consider it a kit gun or a DIY project. If you want something that a high probability of working out of the box - BUY SOMETHING ELSE.

Wow, what got the hate flowing? I have 870s ranging from the very earliest production to current production. Wingmasters, Police and Express guns. I have Mossbergs, Remingtons, Berettas, an FN, Winchesters and others. There is nothing functionally wrong with current 870s in any of the model lines.

DHart said it correctly:

Quote:

Either gun is quite likely to work fine for a long time.

OP, rather than trying to read the tea leaves cast about by a bunch of people behind a screen who you don't know, do yourself the favor of going to a gun store and seeing how they feel, then go to your local club's skeet night - if it's like my club, you'll find people happy to let you fire them a few times if you buy a box of shells. Buy the one that fits and feels good in your hands and on your shoulder.

TMackey · May 17, 2010, 07:34 PM

Quote:

There is nothing functionally wrong with current 870s in any of the model lines.

Are you serious?

Why did I and many others (right here on this very site)have to smack the buttstock of our 870 expresses on the ground to get a fired shell to eject? Google it. You'll have lots of reading.

I have had to polish my chamber, polish my bolt, AND de-burr the receiver with a dremel just to get the thing to do what it was supposed to do from the factory.

I don't think I should have to do that to a brand new gun. Do you?

DHart · May 17, 2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Why did I and many others (right here on this very site)have to smack the buttstock of our 870 expresses on the ground to get a fired shell to eject? Google it. You'll have lots of reading.

I have had to polish my chamber, polish my bolt, AND de-burr the receiver with a dremel just to get the thing to do what it was supposed to do from the factory.

I don't think I should have to do that to a brand new gun. Do you?

WOW. If this is something more than an isolated incident, that definitely sucks. Is this primarily associated with the reduced amount of internal polishing/finishing that is given to the 870 Express models? I had read that the internals on the Express models were rougher (less smoothly finished) than on more expensive 870 models... is this true? If so... all the more reason to go for the more expensive 870 Police models or a Mossberg. Perhaps the 870 Express models aren't really looking like all that much of a "bargain" after all.

I will Google.

DHart · May 17, 2010, 08:34 PM

There is one more difference between the Remington and the Mossberg that is noteworthy... the ejector on the 870 is riveted in and replacing a broken or worn ejector on the 870 typically requires the work of a gunsmith and most likely a refinishing of the receiver.

With the Mossberg, a broken or worn ejector can be removed and replaced by removing a single screw... an easy job to do yourself, pronto.

rc601962 · May 18, 2010, 08:13 AM

My gunsmith had to re cut and polish the chamber in my new 870 express. He said it was too short and rough. After he did this, I have not had any problems with rounds sticking in the action and I have not had to slam the gun on the ground to eject the round.

Now, if I could just get it to eject farther than 1" to 2", that would be nice.

p99guy · May 18, 2010, 12:25 PM

Having used both over the years in Law Enforcement(since 1984), I have nothing against the 870 police config shotguns, but have come to favor the Mossberg and If I had to rush out and buy one today it would be a 590 Special Purpose (whether 6 or 9 shot) with parkerized finish/ rifle sights.

I would go sight those sights in for 50yds with slugs. Equip with a sidesaddle shell carrier...also pattern with buckshot to see what brand it patterns best with.

I like the safety on the mossberg, except when you put a stock with a pistol grip on it(then the Remington has the better safety) The Mossberg receiver
isnt so subject to rust as the blue finish 870( Duracoat can fix this)

I like the slide release on the mossberg because of its position. and the dual action bars on the mossberg.

Kmar40 · May 18, 2010, 12:52 PM

Both work well.

I carry a 14" 870 sometimes at work. I have 500s at home.

I prefer the ergonomics on the 500 and the lighter weight. Almost every pump or auto shotgun designed in the last 50 years has an alloy receiver (Brownings, Franchi, Beretta, Benelli, FN, Winchester, and Stoeger of the top of my head, probably more).

Just go check them both out and see which one feels the best or otherwise tickles your fancy. Of course the same goes for looking at a Winchester, Ithaca, or pretty much any other shotgun. The Chinese crap is the only thing I avoid.

loverme85 · May 18, 2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

JMR40, this is still a ridiculous premise.

When you exchange money for a product, there is an contract that implies that the product will perform as promised. If this is not the case, the manufacturer owes you a disclaimer before you give them your money.

This is a ridiculous premise RC601962. I understand where your coming from, but if this were the case there would be disclaimers on everything.This didn't whiten my teeth wheres the disclaimer crest?

Tommy Vercetti · May 18, 2010, 06:58 PM

Remington 870

srkavanagh6621 · May 18, 2010, 07:39 PM

personally i havent had much luck with mossberg but i do own a couple 870's one wingmaster and one express and both are good guns! Somebody said to look into the benelli nova and i woudl agree with that! i Like my nova with 3.5" capabilities much more than the both the remington and mossberg! hope that helps, you wont go wrong either way!

Maromero · May 18, 2010, 08:06 PM

I've never been disapointed with a Remington gun, ever, and that's five shotguns: two 870, a 11-87, a 3200 & a 1100 20 gauge.

loverme85 · May 18, 2010, 11:12 PM

I own 6 870's (wingmasters and trap grades). The older 870's are just flat out better shotguns than the 500's, esp in the sense of fit and finish (which from the sounds of it your not concerned about fit and finish). If you get an 870 don't buy a new one. If you want a brand new gun then choose the 500.

nefprotector · May 18, 2010, 11:38 PM

I like the Remington!

556A2 · May 19, 2010, 12:00 AM

I guess all the Remington 870 Express models I've bought in the last few years (4 last I checked) must have been defective.... even though people were still saying how bad they were.

I also guess all the other Express owners in my extended family (about 8 870 Express models between 3 of them) also must be defective as well.

I also guess all the shooters I know that own Express models all have these crappy shotguns that are going to quit working too.

I also guess everyone complaining about the Express didn't want to pony up the cash for a Wingmaster or Police...... then they complain about the cost-cutting measures.

It is COMPLETE BS.

I'm not saying you can't get a lemon from Remington, but most of these so called issues are directly related to the user, not the actual shotgun.

I bet most are "sticky/pitted/rough" chambers that people failed to remove all the factory preservative or were using Winchester Universal shells.

briandg · May 19, 2010, 08:35 PM

I have two old 70's vintage mossbergs right now. I've never fired either of them. What I do know is that the mossbergs I have are not remotely as mechanically solid as my 870 shotguns have been. Poor finish, poor fit, poor manufacturing.

Thanks to those, I'd never even LOOK at a mossberg. But, that may be totally irrelevant thanks to the 30+- years difference between the company then, and now.

oneounceload · May 19, 2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Remington takes advantage of their customers because they know we can't return a firearm like we can a stapler

Sure you can, and just as easily.

Either will have issues now and again, most work just fine. You only hear BAD news on this forum or others when it comes to these two models. There are MILLIONS of both out there - now and again, bad ones get out - both companies have reps that will take care of any issue.

Find the one you like and buy it - then go shooting

May 17, 2010, 02:01 PM	#33
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	Mossberg has built a business and reputation for making good quality, reliable shotguns for a very modest price. They've mastered making good-quality, lower-priced shotguns for a very long time - it is their specialty. Remington has built a business and reputation for making good quality, reliable shotguns for a higher price. They've got making good-quality, higher-priced shotguns down cold. But they were losing a lot of business to Mossberg due to price. So... A while back, Remington decided to cut costs and cheapen the build quality of their 870 by coming out with the 870 Express line. Some would argue that Remington may not be as good at making a low priced shotgun as Mossberg is, because Mossberg has mastered that approach from the get go and Remington has tried to get there by cutting costs through cheapening production. I think perhaps Mossberg makes the better grade low priced shotgun and Remington is receiving some bad press because by cheapening their production quality, they are having more issues and complaints with the product. But all that said... the best way to choose is to handle both and carefully examine what you have to do with your firing hand to operate the controls. It's like any product... how you operate the product, the user interface itself, how you access and operate the controls, makes the biggest difference from one product to another. With the Mossberg, you can operate the safety and the slide release without moving your firing hand or trigger finger away from shooting position AT ALL. A very ergonomic, slick set-up. With Remington, to operate the safety or the slide release, you must move both your firing hand and your trigger finger away from the shooting position. THAT, and the fact that Mossberg's loading gate is unencumbered by the lifter being up and out of the way, are the major factors to consider in your choice. Either gun is quite likely to work fine for a long time. Last edited by DHart; May 17, 2010 at 07:33 PM.

May 17, 2010, 08:34 PM	#38
DHart Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 591	There is one more difference between the Remington and the Mossberg that is noteworthy... the ejector on the 870 is riveted in and replacing a broken or worn ejector on the 870 typically requires the work of a gunsmith and most likely a refinishing of the receiver. With the Mossberg, a broken or worn ejector can be removed and replaced by removing a single screw... an easy job to do yourself, pronto. Last edited by DHart; May 17, 2010 at 08:42 PM.

May 18, 2010, 12:25 PM	#40
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	Having used both over the years in Law Enforcement(since 1984), I have nothing against the 870 police config shotguns, but have come to favor the Mossberg and If I had to rush out and buy one today it would be a 590 Special Purpose (whether 6 or 9 shot) with parkerized finish/ rifle sights. I would go sight those sights in for 50yds with slugs. Equip with a sidesaddle shell carrier...also pattern with buckshot to see what brand it patterns best with. I like the safety on the mossberg, except when you put a stock with a pistol grip on it(then the Remington has the better safety) The Mossberg receiver isnt so subject to rust as the blue finish 870( Duracoat can fix this) I like the slide release on the mossberg because of its position. and the dual action bars on the mossberg. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

May 18, 2010, 06:58 PM	#43
Tommy Vercetti Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2004 Location: Fairhope, Alabama Posts: 1,119	Remington 870 __________________ "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." Sinclair Lewis, (It Can't Happen Here, 1935) "Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero

May 17, 2010, 06:01 AM	#27
namlot1979 Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Posts: 31	Getting the mossy myself in a few weeks basically because i prefer the safety postion. i have one of the newer 870 express's and cant say anything bad about it either, i must be one of the rare owners who has never had a problem with my express...i would say that you should hold each gun and see what fits you better and which controls you are more comfortable with. either gun is going to last your lifetime so you might as well be comfortable..and dont get to wrapped up in all the 870 bashing, half those guys dont even own them probably...i own one and it is a great gun that i would recommend to anybody

May 17, 2010, 07:53 AM	#28
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Don't let the Remington haters get too you. Both the 870 Express and 500 are budget shotguns. Both companies build the guns to sell at the lowest possible price point. Both companies let sub par guns out the door on occasion. Spend $1,500 on a Beretta if you expect perfection out of the box. Remingtons have a problem with shells sticking in the chamber. This is usually an easy fix. Mossbergs have a problem with unfired shells dumping on the ground from the magazine. Both companies will make it right if you have a problem. For a variety of reasons I feel the Remington is the better long term choice of the 2, but the Mossberg has proven to be good enough for what most people use a shotgun for. As I stated im my 1st post, if you are looking at pure reliability, consider the Benelli Nova. I really think it will prove to be the best of the bunch. We may have to wait 50 years to know for sure.

May 17, 2010, 08:28 AM	#29
rc601962 Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Posts: 43	JMR40 has made the most ridiculous statement of the entire thread. You shouldn't have to pay $1500 to get a gun that works out of the box. If a company sells a gun to the public, the gun should work. Period. If it doesn't and they know it, that is fraud. Remington knows their guns have rough chambers and other problems. They continue to sell these guns because they have contempt for their customers and basically are stealing from them. The Remington fan boys have Stockholm Syndrome. You should "hate" any gun you have to fix to get it running right the first time. If you buy the Remington, you can't say you were not warned.

May 17, 2010, 09:23 AM	#30
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	And spending the $1,500 will not guarantee you a perfect gun. My point is that they all have issues. I'm not a particular brand loyalist.

May 17, 2010, 10:04 AM	#31
rc601962 Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Posts: 43	JMR40, this is still a ridiculous premise. When you exchange money for a product, there is an contract that implies that the product will perform as promised. If this is not the case, the manufacturer owes you a disclaimer before you give them your money. When you buy a stapler from Walmart, you expect it to function without having to tinker with it. If it doesn't, you return it for a refund. Remington takes advantage of their customers because they know we can't return a firearm like we can a stapler.

May 17, 2010, 10:14 AM	#32
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Pick a product, any product, and you will have issues. Even products with a reputation for reliability can have problems. Just ask Toyota. Remington and Mossberg will both take care of their customers. And yes you can return the gun if it is not satisfactory. I've had new Smith and Wesson pistols shipped to my door because I bought a lemon and they replaced the gun. And I still purchased other Smith products even though I had a terrrible experience with one of their guns. Most any company will either repair or replace the gun if it is defective. I've owned seversl 870's, several Mossbergs. Never had any issues with the Remington shotguns. I did have minor issues with the Mossberg. What am I suposed to do when simeone asks my opinion. Tell them the 870 is a POS just because you say so. That has simply not been my experience.

May 17, 2010, 05:58 PM	#34
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Not understating anything positive you said about the Mossberg. All true. But it is quite simple for either a right or left handed person to operate the 870, (or any other gun with the safety button behind the triggerguard) without moving your hand from the firing position. It can be done with the trigger finger inside the triggerguard ( although I don't recommend it). For a right handed person, use the middle pad of the trigger finger to disengage the safety. Reach behind the triggerguard with the middle finger to engage. Reverse the process for left handers. You don't even have to reposition your thumb like you do on the Mossberg. A little awkward the first time you try it, but the safety button behind the trigger guard is the fastest and easiest I've found. If you replace the safety button with an oversize one it is no contest, but the standard button works well also. A key reason why I prefer Benelli over Beretta in auto loaders The slide release on the 870 cannot be used with the gun in the firing position, but I've yet to find a reason why I would want to do that. I think Remington would be better off to work on building a better shotgun and let the price fall where ever it does. The basic 870 design is a good and proven design. It is also a fact that it is going to be a more expensive gun to produce. They have tried to cut so many corners to try and match the Mossbergs price that they are letting too many bad guns out. Most of the problems are cosmetic or very minor ones that can be easily corrected. Still it hurts the reputation of the company and leads some to believe the 870 is junk.

May 18, 2010, 08:13 AM	#39
rc601962 Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Posts: 43	My gunsmith had to re cut and polish the chamber in my new 870 express. He said it was too short and rough. After he did this, I have not had any problems with rounds sticking in the action and I have not had to slam the gun on the ground to eject the round. Now, if I could just get it to eject farther than 1" to 2", that would be nice.

May 18, 2010, 12:52 PM	#41
Kmar40 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 668	Both work well. I carry a 14" 870 sometimes at work. I have 500s at home. I prefer the ergonomics on the 500 and the lighter weight. Almost every pump or auto shotgun designed in the last 50 years has an alloy receiver (Brownings, Franchi, Beretta, Benelli, FN, Winchester, and Stoeger of the top of my head, probably more). Just go check them both out and see which one feels the best or otherwise tickles your fancy. Of course the same goes for looking at a Winchester, Ithaca, or pretty much any other shotgun. The Chinese crap is the only thing I avoid.

May 18, 2010, 07:39 PM	#44
srkavanagh6621 Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Location: South Dakota Posts: 190	personally i havent had much luck with mossberg but i do own a couple 870's one wingmaster and one express and both are good guns! Somebody said to look into the benelli nova and i woudl agree with that! i Like my nova with 3.5" capabilities much more than the both the remington and mossberg! hope that helps, you wont go wrong either way!

May 18, 2010, 08:06 PM	#45
Maromero Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Outside the continental U Posts: 752	I've never been disapointed with a Remington gun, ever, and that's five shotguns: two 870, a 11-87, a 3200 & a 1100 20 gauge.

May 18, 2010, 11:12 PM	#46
loverme85 Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2010 Location: Jamestown NY Posts: 117	I own 6 870's (wingmasters and trap grades). The older 870's are just flat out better shotguns than the 500's, esp in the sense of fit and finish (which from the sounds of it your not concerned about fit and finish). If you get an 870 don't buy a new one. If you want a brand new gun then choose the 500.

May 18, 2010, 11:38 PM	#47
nefprotector Junior member Join Date: December 3, 2009 Location: SE Alabama Posts: 701	I like the Remington!

May 19, 2010, 12:00 AM	#48
556A2 Member Join Date: February 17, 2008 Location: Asheboro, NC Posts: 57	I guess all the Remington 870 Express models I've bought in the last few years (4 last I checked) must have been defective.... even though people were still saying how bad they were. I also guess all the other Express owners in my extended family (about 8 870 Express models between 3 of them) also must be defective as well. I also guess all the shooters I know that own Express models all have these crappy shotguns that are going to quit working too. I also guess everyone complaining about the Express didn't want to pony up the cash for a Wingmaster or Police...... then they complain about the cost-cutting measures. It is COMPLETE BS. I'm not saying you can't get a lemon from Remington, but most of these so called issues are directly related to the user, not the actual shotgun. I bet most are "sticky/pitted/rough" chambers that people failed to remove all the factory preservative or were using Winchester Universal shells.

May 19, 2010, 08:35 PM	#49
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I have two old 70's vintage mossbergs right now. I've never fired either of them. What I do know is that the mossbergs I have are not remotely as mechanically solid as my 870 shotguns have been. Poor finish, poor fit, poor manufacturing. Thanks to those, I'd never even LOOK at a mossberg. But, that may be totally irrelevant thanks to the 30+- years difference between the company then, and now.