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February 9, 2014, 03:53 PM | #1 |
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Pistol Ready Positions: Pros and Cons
(On another thread, we sidetracked away from the topic into the pros and cons of various ready positions. Opinions were strong, so I thought I'd move it to a new thread.)
I'd like to discus a few pistol positions that I've seen taught. Feel free to add others that you've seen! To start, let's agree to some terms for the discussion. Let's use the ones here: http://www.handgunsmag.com/2013/09/0...st-deployment/ -Traditional Low Ready -Neutral Ready -Compressed Ready -High Ready -Sul If you are going to talk about something different, please describe it, and don't call it the same as one of these. Personally, I am a fan of Neutral Ready and Sul. Neutral ready provides a good balance of speed while not muzzling the person or target you are interacting with (provided they/it are more than a few feet away). Sul works well when the floor is a safe muzzle direction and you are moving in close proximity to people or objects you don't want to muzzle. With practice, it is still fairly quick to target via Compressed ready (what I would call "firing from retention" or "Step 3" of the 4 step draw stroke) or full extension. I am not a fan of High Ready, as described, as I feel it is very far off target, and would waste time, while not providing more security or safety than Sul or Neutral Ready. Obviously, if straight up is the only direction you want the muzzle, it may have to do. I have seen a "Modified High Ready" where the muzzle is more toward a 45 degree up cant, and a moderate distance from the body. This would be about halfway between Neutral Ready and High Ready. I don't feel it is a bad position, per say; however I don't think it is as efficient as Neutral Ready while it only buys a few extra feet of safe area in front of the shooter. It should be obvious that if you are at the Neutral Ready, and a non-threat is approaching the muzzle axis, you may want to move the muzzle higher. DISCUSSION: So, what positions do you train with and what are your intended uses? Do you have complaints about specific positions or think your way is better than these? (If so, please inform us.) |
February 9, 2014, 04:14 PM | #2 |
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I think you can overthink these things, just point and shoot.
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February 9, 2014, 04:28 PM | #3 |
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From what I've read, Sul was developed after some police officers were shooting each other too often when stacking at a door. So, I'd say, sometimes "just point and shoot" leaves too much to human error.
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February 9, 2014, 05:58 PM | #4 |
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I am a low ready person but I selected my method in the early 80's. Its just how it was done then and its how I do it now. I also grip a AR by the magwell... its just me.
The only issue I have with all this new-cool method is the over articulated robotic draw and high presentation. It looks neat but it seems like alot of wasted effort. It just doesnt take all that to put a sight post on a relatively close target.
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February 9, 2014, 06:42 PM | #5 |
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as a EXTREMELY new person to shooting and such, (read my thread) from what i read, the most safe and fastest to ready position looks like Sul. curious, but why isnt there a hybrid version of Low Ready, and Compressed Ready, where you basically take compressed ready and point the muzzle slightly downwards?
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February 9, 2014, 06:56 PM | #6 |
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David Spaulding...
Gun writer & retired LE officer; Dave Spaulding teaches what he calls a "third eye" method. He wrote a detailed magazine article about it. It's like a "low ready" tactic but at the chest level.
I've read a few magazine items about the Sul or South(Portrugese) method. It seems safe & practical for urban areas or confined spaces that may be crowded. |
February 9, 2014, 06:58 PM | #7 |
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I agree with Manta
Too much thinking and not enough just doing what feels right for the situation. That "Sul" position just sounds stupid
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February 9, 2014, 07:12 PM | #8 | |
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February 9, 2014, 07:13 PM | #9 |
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Ryan, there is some risk with Sul that you can muzzle your own feet, especially if you bend aggressively at the waist. I would say that Low Ready or Neutral ready are likely to be the fastest, since there is less required motion to get to full extension. That said, you can fire at very close targets from Compressed Ready, so for that 3-5ft target, I guess that would be the fastest.
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February 9, 2014, 07:27 PM | #10 | |
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February 9, 2014, 07:33 PM | #11 |
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Yes, if you hunch over with a firearm in Sul, you need to train yourself to let the muzzle rotate a little forward. I've seen this happen (and done it myself) while learning. It also reinforces the idea that you should have a coach or teacher around to point out mistakes and places to improve.
I still think it is a useful stance, but like everything firearm related, you still need to have your brain engaged. |
February 10, 2014, 07:48 AM | #12 |
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ASP/Ring/Blue guns....
If you really want to "run & gun" you can get a polymer ASP, Ring or Blue gun then practice these drills/stances. You can do it with a unloaded weapon too, but I wouldn't want to nick/scuff/damage a $500-1200.00 pistol doing these kinds of drills.
As noted, crowds, densely packed areas & stress can not be brought up enough. People(sheeple) tend to panic in critical incidents they will run, tromp and push through anyone. If you deploy a firearm or work as a armed professional(security, EP, LE, etc) you need to retain your firearm and be ready to shoot quickly. |
February 10, 2014, 08:14 AM | #13 | |
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Quote:
I'll stick with a two hand hold and a more natural position, and I suspect, in a crowd, pointing the muzzle up is actually much safer Those pictures look to be neither natural nor comfortable to me
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February 10, 2014, 08:38 AM | #14 | ||
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Quote:
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(Note how the firing hand in position SUL is virtually identical to the firing hand on a pistol gripped long gun when carried in "indoor ready" position.) |
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February 10, 2014, 09:31 AM | #15 |
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The largest delay in getting muzzle to target comes from the time it takes to make the decision as to whether to shoot or not.
Compared to that delay, the differences between all the mentioned ready positions are very small. And not all that much of a time savings from hand on a holstered pistol, the safest one, especially when moving is involved. Try them all, using a timer, and see which one is better for you.
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February 10, 2014, 09:55 AM | #16 | ||
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Quote:
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The other thing I "note" is there are only 3 fingers holding the gun at all, and I still don't see how, holding it at that angle, that you can avoid pointing it at your feet (or someone else's) if you walk A pistol grip rifle has nothing do do with where the handgun muzzle is pointed, so I'm not sure how that's relevant You're right though, I haven't had "training" with Sul I've only got 55 years of shooting experience to go by
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One shot, one kill Last edited by Snyper; February 10, 2014 at 10:00 AM. |
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February 10, 2014, 10:09 AM | #17 | |||
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Quote:
Position SUL allows you to safely maneuver in a crowd without pointing your muzzle at anyone. Quote:
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February 10, 2014, 10:09 AM | #18 | |
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Quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrYEBNFhsd8 There is no one "perfect" ready position for all instances, but Ive always found SUL to come pretty close. |
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February 10, 2014, 10:57 AM | #19 |
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Unless this is some sort of enjoyable, hypothetical armchair exercise, many of these questions require some exposure to properly conducted training in order to get some meaningful answers.
Carrying and moving about in the real world while holding a handgun can expose the armed person to a myriad of situations, ranging from those imaginable to probably a surprising number of them haven't been considered. The world and how its events unfold is hardly ever scripted to our expectations, right? Only knowing how to hold the handgun in 1 or 2 pre-programmed techniques, and counting on always having both hands available to devote to the gun, may not provide someone with enough tools to face some real-world problems. Training often answers a lot of questions, including questions someone may not have known needed to be asked prior to the training experience. Understanding basics is always good, but learning how to safely, properly & effectively apply them in a variety of situations, and how to change according to the demands of the moment ... especially while under stress ... is probably best learned under the watchful eye of an experienced instructor. Learning martial arts via the self-taught method, whether from books, magazine articles, video clips or DVD's, is still not nearly as effective of a method of learning as hands-on training under a trainer. Useful as a supplement for the learning process, sure, but not as a replacement for actual training & supervised practice. Mistakes and bad habits are usually hard for the practitioner/student to spot for themselves.
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February 10, 2014, 11:29 AM | #20 | ||
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February 10, 2014, 12:24 PM | #21 | ||||
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It's just the latest fad, and no better than other time tested positions http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...ition-sul.html Here's what the guy who invented it had to say: Quote:
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It seems the guy who invented it doesn't do it "correctly" according to the "experienced" shooters here: Quote:
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February 10, 2014, 12:33 PM | #22 |
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I think some times people get too "locked in" on a ready/carry position and view it as static...I will only hold this way or that when in reality you will probably flow between two or more depending on actual needs of the situation in that moment in time. For instance, you might go from neutral or compressed ready to sul if you need to turn with the weapon and face a different direction then move back to neutral or compressed ready.
It is really hard to make an educated judgement until you get some experience in these areas. They all have their uses. |
February 10, 2014, 12:39 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
Don't over-think this thing. Learn from the instructors and apply the lessons to the real world. I've used SUL in the real world, and for limited applications it's a relatively safe way to move through a crowd of people. (There's that word "relatively" again.) |
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February 10, 2014, 12:42 PM | #24 | |
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Quote:
It's essence is that the muzzle is pointed at the ground, the gun held close to the body and retained there, and it's intended for use while moving or in a crowded place. It is a strong weapons retention hold. The gun can be quickly elevated for a close to the body shot or to extension, or to a less awkward position. It is useful in some situations IMHO. tipoc |
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February 10, 2014, 12:57 PM | #25 | |
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Quote:
It is was never intended to be a general use ready position. It was intended to be, and is, a specialized tool for a particular task.
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