The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 8, 2010, 08:31 PM   #1
Hog Buster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2009
Location: Pointe Coupee, Louisana
Posts: 772
Too much gun for Whitetail?

Lots of posts about caliber, killing power and the right rifle for Whitetail posted here lately..... This might interest some of you.

My grandson was out back blasting a half inch thick steel swinging target with a .22 and a 9mm and got bored with the small stuff. He asked me if he could shoot my 45/70.

Here's the result..... The 2 dents at 6 o'clock are from a 30/30 just for comparison.

So you don't have to ask.... 55 grains of Reloader 7 behind a 300 grain Remington JHP.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Steel Target.jpg (70.7 KB, 244 views)
__________________
Those who beat their guns into plows, will plow for those who don't.-Thomas Jefferson
Hog Buster is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 08:33 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
I don't think that you can really have too much gun for the target.
Too much gun for the shooter is another story.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 08:38 PM   #3
Hog Buster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2009
Location: Pointe Coupee, Louisana
Posts: 772
Pizza Dude

Well it sure as hell was too much for my pistol target......
__________________
Those who beat their guns into plows, will plow for those who don't.-Thomas Jefferson
Hog Buster is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 08:43 PM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
Well it sure as hell was too much for my pistol target......
Hey, it stopped the bullet didn't it?
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 08:44 PM   #5
trooper3385
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: South Texas
Posts: 814
Just make sure your a safe distance from the steel target when you or your grandson is shooting it. Don't ask how I know!
trooper3385 is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 09:31 PM   #6
horseman308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 526
Quote:
I don't think that you can really have too much gun for the target.
Too much gun for the shooter is another story.
Agreed. A friend of mine calls his .45/70 his "bowling for deer gun." People have said nothing kills like a great big hole. So my thought it is that anything will be fine as long as:

1) It's big enough to reliably destroy vital tissue every time
2) Accurate enough to hit vital tissue every time
3) The shooter is proficient enough to achieve # 2

After that, who cares how big it is? That deer may be just as dead with a .243 or a .45/70, but it's not always about using the smallest possible bullet you can get away with.
__________________
You only take one shot at a time - make it count.
horseman308 is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 09:41 PM   #7
shepherddogs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Posts: 1,007
Pay attention to what Trooper3385 said. I got a 45 slug in my forearm shooting at one of those. The Orthopedic guy had to dig it out.
shepherddogs is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 10:08 PM   #8
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
I am not sure how the comparison of pistol and puny calibers against .45-70 on a soft steel target has any relevance on hunting deer and whether the .45-70 is too much gun or not.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 12:04 AM   #9
trooper3385
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: South Texas
Posts: 814
Didn't realize there was a such thing as soft steel. I guess I learned something today!! I was just trying to provide some info to people that might prevent an injury in the future. Ever see the video of the guy shooting a 50 cal and have a round bounce back off his head. I doubt anyone would consider that a puny caliber. The incident I was talking about was a 12 gauge slug. I was 20 yds behind the guy firing it and it bounced back and hit the guy i was talking to in the nuts.
trooper3385 is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 07:49 AM   #10
Kreyzhorse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2006
Location: NKY
Posts: 12,463
45-70 too much for whitetail? Not with standard loadings it isn't. Big hole going in, slight bigger hole going out, dead deer within 100 yards.

A hot loaded 45-70 might be a different story though, but, hitting a steel plate is certainly different than hitting bone and flesh.
__________________
"He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson
Kreyzhorse is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 11:14 AM   #11
sc928porsche
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2008
Location: now living in alabama
Posts: 2,433
I believe there is a point at which you can have too much gun for deer, but if the cartridge is made commercially then I feel that is not the case. I keep hearing that "it wastes too much meat" etc. Hey, just put it in the boiler room and away from the sholders and what is lost is minimal. A 45-70 slug through the lungs or heart will drop them quickly. Same can be said for a 25-06 or a 50BMG. Get yourself an anatomy chart and find out where these vitals are really located.
__________________
No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.
sc928porsche is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 11:21 AM   #12
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
I believe there is a point at which you can have too much gun for deer, but if the cartridge is made commercially then I feel that is not the case.
I'm just curious, what does "commercially made" have to do with anything?
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 12:17 PM   #13
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
Quote:
Didn't realize there was a such thing as soft steel. I guess I learned something today!!
You are kidding, right? Of course there is soft steel. There is hard steel as well. You want hard steel, such as AR500 rated, for rifle calibers so that you don't get the cratering seen in the target above.

Quote:
I was just trying to provide some info to people that might prevent an injury in the future.
Right and using the correct type of steel will go a long way to preventing the cratering seen above.

Quote:
Ever see the video of the guy shooting a 50 cal and have a round bounce back off his head. I doubt anyone would consider that a puny caliber.
The puny caliber statement was in reference to .22 and 9mm being compared against a .45-70. They are, by comparison, puny calibers. So just because a .45-70 will damage a soft steel target and .22 and 9mm won't isn't relevant to whether .45-70 is too much for deer.

A little checking into the .50 cal story and you find out he was using a soft steel target. That was a very poor choice of target material.


The incident I was talking about was a 12 gauge slug. I was 20 yds behind the guy firing it and it bounced back and hit the guy i was talking to in the nuts.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 12:55 PM   #14
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Trooper...
Quote:
Didn't realize there was a such thing as soft steel.
Steel comes in a plethora of formulas... also there are techniques to attain varying levels of "hardness" from the same formula...

Hardness and softness as well as malleability or brittleness are chosen for the widely varying application requirements.

railroad track is much harder than the wheels of the locomotive... the axles of the wheels are much harder than the bushings they ride against.

On a very elementary level... drill or hack saw "cold rolled" material than feel the ease of doing the same task on "hot rolled"

Look at some S.A.E. bolt heads... find one with 3 hash marks and one with 5 or more.... cut these both and you will see the difference in soft and hard steels...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 01:33 PM   #15
sc928porsche
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2008
Location: now living in alabama
Posts: 2,433
Well pizza, 20mm 40mm 105mm and 120mm are not commercial cartridges. There are quite a few millitary cartridges that are not really suitable for hunting.
__________________
No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.
sc928porsche is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 01:43 PM   #16
Hog Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 386
Whitetails?? I dont belive there is a gun to big for a deer, to small, definatly. One shot one kill. The bigger the gun the better your chances are of accomplishing this task!
Hog Hunter is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 02:04 PM   #17
Hog Buster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2009
Location: Pointe Coupee, Louisana
Posts: 772
I think the dents in the steel target are a fair representation of the 45/70s power. Enough to kill anything that walks, creeps or crawls on the face of the earth.

As for hunting deer with it, white tail or mule, it all boils down to is whatever you like. If it’s a macho thing with a big gun, that’s OK, I like big guns, I just don’t hunt deer with them. If it’s the precise shot route with a smaller caliber, that’s OK too, the method which I prefer. It’s whatever jerks your rope. The deer hunters around here mostly use the .243, 270 or 30/06, a few use 30/30 and 7mm Mags. Most get several every season.

However novice deer hunters seem to be overly influenced by large caliber's. They assume that greater killing power equates to easier kills. Anyone who has hunted deer for a while knows this just ain’t true. How many times have you heard “ I can’t believe I missed.” or “I hit him a little far back and couldn’t find him.” Nobody ever says “I must have flinched or jerked the shot.” A miss is a miss with any caliber, but flinching and jerking is a bit more common with large bore weapons than smaller ones. Not a good thing for new deer hunters, or any hunter for that matter.

Hunt them with whatever rings your bell, just try and make well aimed and executed killing shots. Don’t just rely on caliber killing power to bring home the venison. As I’ve said before, it’s not the size of the hammer, but how it’s applied.
__________________
Those who beat their guns into plows, will plow for those who don't.-Thomas Jefferson
Hog Buster is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 02:05 PM   #18
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
Well pizza, 20mm 40mm 105mm and 120mm are not commercial cartridges. There are quite a few millitary cartridges that are not really suitable for hunting.
Ah, I see. I wasn't really considering non-shoulder-fired weapons. I thought that you were referring to "not commercially available" in the sense of high-powered but obsolete, or wildcat, rounds so I wasn't sure why the availability, or lack thereof, had any bearing on "overkill" status.

Yes, a tank is overkill, I agree.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 02:17 PM   #19
rattletrap1970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2009
Location: Torrington, CT. USA
Posts: 299
I'd like to hit a Whitetail with a pumpkin chucker (pneumatic).
rattletrap1970 is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 02:30 PM   #20
johnbt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
.45-70? Pfui.

My uncle used a .444 Marlin for deer for 7 years until his brother-in-law wanted the gun back. It's popular for black bear. My uncle then went back to using his old BAR .30-06. He likes it, says it doesn't kick as much, but he's 78 and starting to slow down.

Original .45-70 = 405 grains, 1330 fps, 1590 ft.lb.

.444 Marlin = 300 grains, 2000 fps, 2665 ft.lb.

John
johnbt is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 03:01 PM   #21
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
Original .45-70 = 405 grains, 1330 fps, 1590 ft.lb.

.444 Marlin = 300 grains, 2000 fps, 2665 ft.lb.

444 Marlin? Pfui!

12ga, 385gr, 1900fps.... 3085 ft/lbs.....
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 03:30 PM   #22
golfballshootr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 185
Quote:
Didn't realize there was a such thing as soft steel.
There are many different grades of steel. For our range gongs, we have nothing under 7/8", most are 1 1/4". They are all hardened plate, but even so, before we ever put a round one into them, I take them to my shop and surface the entire area with hard surfacing rods and then grind the ridges out. Yes, it takes time, but before I went to doing this, our gong life was not that long, currently we are shooting the same gongs for going on 3 years now and when they do get cratered to an extent, take them back to the shop and grind down all the crater rims and re-surface them.

As for having too much for a whitetail, I would have to reiterate what others have said; depending on shot placement as to whether you lose much meat or not. Hit a deer in the flanks, front or rear, with a 180gr out of a .300 Win mag and you lose at least one shoulder if not both, hit it with a 95gr .243 low, behind the shoulder, right in the heart or in the neck and you lose minimal, both shots from both guns are still kills, so it all comes back to shot placement.

(I can't say DRT for 100% though, simply because I hit a buck recently with 7MM Rem, partial shoulder, jellied the heart and he still went 15 yards. Found him easy enough, but he was not DRT on the spot, is all I am saying.)
golfballshootr is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 06:29 PM   #23
waterfowler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Posts: 115
Quote:
peetzakilla
Too much gun for the shooter is another story.

I definately agree, you can use anything on deer. Whatever you feel most comfortable with.
__________________
If guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns
waterfowler is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 07:42 PM   #24
87mustang
Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2009
Posts: 91
if shooting whitetail with a 45/70 is overkill, then what would you call shooting baby groundhogs with a savage smokeless muzzleloader at 25 yards with 300 grain bullets
87mustang is offline  
Old March 9, 2010, 09:19 PM   #25
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Quote:
then what would you call shooting baby groundhogs with a savage smokeless muzzleloader at 25 yards with 300 grain bullets
I think that falls under the "red mist" category.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08869 seconds with 11 queries