Mag-Lite

AdrenalineJunky · September 10, 2001, 03:43 PM

Is anyone aware of a book or similar source of information regarding defensive(primarily) and offensive techniques using a mag-lite? I use a 3-"C" cell light working as a doorman and have worked it into a couple of Thai routines. My problem is that I think using the mag-lite in this fashion (with my routines) will be too harmful to use on someone. My goal is optimal protection with minimal liability. I know there are techniques out there which are specific to mag-lites and resemble aikido or judo, but there are no classes locally that give instruction in that area. If any one can suggest some written material or even provide me with leads to some material, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

September 10, 2001, 04:09 PM

I wouldn't worry about it being too harmful. It should impact like a thick ASP.

AdrenalineJunky · September 10, 2001, 04:13 PM

Seriously, I think the light will do some major damage. Also, in my routine, the light ended up being more of a striking weapon than a defensive tool. Again, thanks for the replies.

Art Eatman · September 10, 2001, 04:29 PM

If "stabbed" into a solar plexus, it's a good extension of your reach. However, if used as a club, and too a head, there is the probability of a blunt-instrument cut.

So, in today's world of tort liability, I would wrap a couple of layers of cloth around the body of the light, taping into place. It would still provide an effective thump, but be less likely to cut.

"See? I was trying to avoid harming anybody!"

, Art

AdrenalineJunky · September 10, 2001, 04:45 PM

I won't be "clubbing" anyone. Still, is there any reading material anyone knows about that might give me some insight on this. In my law enforcement classes we have briefly reviewed the use of a baton. I think this is similar to what I'm looking for, but specific to mag-lites. I'll ask my teachers this week, but I was hoping someone here would have that info. available. Thanks, again.

LawDog · September 10, 2001, 07:15 PM

There's a book out called Official Kubaton Techniques, co-written by Tak Kubota. You should be able to order it here:
http://www.spyhq.com/personal/keychain.htm

Tak Kubota also wrote a book called Action Kubaton, but I've never been able to find it.

Kubaton techniques can translate pretty well for use with a flashlight, especially if you have one of the 'C' cell lights.

LawDog

Gunter · September 11, 2001, 04:04 AM

A 3C Maglite qualifies as a short to medium "stick" (ends useful for jabs; edges for pressure application; tube may be used to strike), and as such can be used as nonlethal or as lethal force. Nonlethal use is restricted to the large muscles of the limbs (hitting joints has a high risk of permanent damage, with associated civil liability). Blows and jabs against the head or torso must be regarded as lethal force (and thus generally only permissible when someone is trying to kill you, right now).

Charlie Fox · September 11, 2001, 02:23 PM

I have used a 3 C cell Maglite for a number of years. I find it to be very portable as well as quick in a defense situation. I think its use should be confined to defensive moves - blocks and locks - as opposed to strikes. Striking a subject should be a last resort but should be as with any other baton; aimed at long bones and joints. As for criminal liability, the type of weapon doesn't matter as long as you can articulate that you were defending yourself. It is only a flashlight after all

Jffal · September 12, 2001, 04:49 PM

Armor of New Hampshire: Browsing Defensive Tactics With Flashlights
http://www.shooterstore.com/acb/show...=1027&CATID=60

Contains information on liability and diagramed instructions on the defensive and offensive use of flashlights.

Jeff

AdrenalineJunky · September 13, 2001, 12:24 PM

everyone for their informarion.

parabellum9x19 · September 16, 2001, 01:07 AM

What is the best flashlight that can be used as a baton?

I am already aware of the flashlight attachment for ASP batons.

parabellum9x19 · September 16, 2001, 02:07 AM

Does a 5 or 6 C cell Maglite work well as a baton? Are there better 5 or 6 C cell flashlights that can be used as a baton?

TEXAS LAWMAN · September 16, 2001, 03:16 AM

Adrenaline Junky,

John Peters wrote a small hardback book, "Defensive Use of Flashlights" (I bought my copy from Massad Ayoob's Police Bookshelf in New Hampshire in the mid-80s---I think). I can't access the book right now but believe the title is correct.

David Scott · September 16, 2001, 09:47 AM

Retired LEO friends advise me that when investigating noises in the night, my 4-C cell MagLite should be carried in my left hand, over my left shoulder, gripped so that I can operate the switch and aim it, or swing it forward for use as a club. That sucker is heavy enough to induce subdural hematoma, and tough enough so you won't hurt the flashlight.

parabellum9x19 · September 17, 2001, 11:33 PM

Anyone have a 5 or 6 C cell Maglite?

Seeker · September 17, 2001, 11:58 PM

Does nobody use the "D" cell maglites?

Seems like the heavier D cells would make a better improvised weapon, are they too heavy?

AdrenalineJunky · September 18, 2001, 12:31 PM

I'm going to buy a 6 C cell flash light to keep by my bed. I have found that, even the 3 C cell light, can easily double as a powerful striking weapon. With respect to the D cell being too heavy, honestly, I'm not sure. From what I recall, the 2 D cell and the 3 C cell were approx. the same length and weight. Obviously the widths are different, that's why I chose the C cell. But I believe it all depends on what your primary purpose for the light is. The guy at the Army Surplus told me that D cells last much longer than C cells. I'm not sure if that's true or not. But I use the light while bouncing, and chose the C cell because it felt more like a baton. Both are extremely solid and equally as intimidating. I used to carry one of those mini-mag lites and, I must say, I have notice a significant difference in the time and type of response I receive.

Jffal · September 22, 2001, 08:29 AM

I have average sized hands and am most comfortable with 5 and 6 C Mags as well as the 3 D. I also have a 4 D which I leave in the car. A bit too cumbersome for me for any other purpose than illumination but it serves that function very well. That 4 D could probably be used to knock the auto windshield out if I was able to do so after an accident.

With fresh batteries and xenon lamps (considerably more powerful than the standard Krypton bulps the Mags are sold with) you have an efficient multipurpose tool.

Cold Steel once produced a 20 or so inch aluminum flashlight that fed off 7 AA batteries in a row. Referred to as the Brute, it offered a non-adjustable wide angle beam, on off button on the tailcap, very thick barrel. It weighed over 20 ounces but because of some critical design flaws (weak springs in the tailcap and under the shock absorber bulb housing itself), turned out to be more tempermental than Cold Steel intended. The remaining stock was sold to either US Calvary or Brigade Quartermasters, renamed The Enforcer, and eventually sold out. Flawed or not, I rather like this item.

I'd like to see the design revived and improved. It would make a suitable substitute to C and D cell torches with specs that more closely resemble metal batons.
Jeff

parabellum9x19 · September 23, 2001, 04:13 AM

The old original 5D and 6D were made of a heavier aluminum. I have seen a pic of the cold steel brute. I wish it was still in production.

Battlespace · September 25, 2001, 11:20 AM

Several (no - many) years while in Germany I was talking with a military police sergeant who had spent many years handling drunk soldiers. He recommended a four cell flashlight with the handle srapped with good old fashioned black friction tape. He told me all you have to do is jam the light handle up into the crotch and then twist it sharply about 1/4 turn. The friction tape provides a good media to grip clothes, skin and whatever with. He said he never had any problems with getting whoever it was to do exactly like he was told. Granted, this is not a self defense purpose, but does show a good use for flashlights.

Mannlicher · September 27, 2001, 07:19 PM

I have owned and carried a rechargable MagLight for years. It is the size of a 5 D cell light. I think this is what was called the "Rodney King Special" some years back. It is heavy, and would make a darn good defensive weapon if called upon.

Oh, and it has some 30K candle power brightness too. Wow.

JB-man · September 27, 2001, 11:07 PM

When your life is threatened, I don't think you're gonna debate whatever you do to defend yourself is lawful or not.
Some of those so-called laws are garbage, and not worth dying for. I don't think the jury's gonna nail you for defending yourself with a flashlight.
But, hey, I could be wrong??? I have a mag-light, but it's only 4 inches long.

swatman · September 30, 2001, 01:04 AM

May wanna check out Ayoob's book THE TRUTH ABOUT SELF DEFENSE.
He has an entire chapter dealing with use of flashlights as SD weapons.

September 10, 2001, 03:43 PM	#1
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	Mag-Lite Is anyone aware of a book or similar source of information regarding defensive(primarily) and offensive techniques using a mag-lite? I use a 3-"C" cell light working as a doorman and have worked it into a couple of Thai routines. My problem is that I think using the mag-lite in this fashion (with my routines) will be too harmful to use on someone. My goal is optimal protection with minimal liability. I know there are techniques out there which are specific to mag-lites and resemble aikido or judo, but there are no classes locally that give instruction in that area. If any one can suggest some written material or even provide me with leads to some material, I would appreciate it. Thanks. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

September 10, 2001, 04:13 PM	#3
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	Seriously, I think the light will do some major damage. Also, in my routine, the light ended up being more of a striking weapon than a defensive tool. Again, thanks for the replies. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

September 10, 2001, 04:45 PM	#5
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	I won't be "clubbing" anyone. Still, is there any reading material anyone knows about that might give me some insight on this. In my law enforcement classes we have briefly reviewed the use of a baton. I think this is similar to what I'm looking for, but specific to mag-lites. I'll ask my teachers this week, but I was hoping someone here would have that info. available. Thanks, again. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

September 10, 2001, 07:15 PM	#6
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	There's a book out called Official Kubaton Techniques, co-written by Tak Kubota. You should be able to order it here: http://www.spyhq.com/personal/keychain.htm Tak Kubota also wrote a book called Action Kubaton, but I've never been able to find it. Kubaton techniques can translate pretty well for use with a flashlight, especially if you have one of the 'C' cell lights. LawDog __________________ "The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer." --The 13th Warrior Bona na Croin The LawDog Files

September 11, 2001, 02:23 PM	#8
Charlie Fox Member Join Date: January 25, 2001 Location: Summerville SC Posts: 79	I have used a 3 C cell Maglite for a number of years. I find it to be very portable as well as quick in a defense situation. I think its use should be confined to defensive moves - blocks and locks - as opposed to strikes. Striking a subject should be a last resort but should be as with any other baton; aimed at long bones and joints. As for criminal liability, the type of weapon doesn't matter as long as you can articulate that you were defending yourself. It is only a flashlight after all __________________ "Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."

September 10, 2001, 04:09 PM	#2
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	I wouldn't worry about it being too harmful. It should impact like a thick ASP.

September 10, 2001, 04:29 PM	#4
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	If "stabbed" into a solar plexus, it's a good extension of your reach. However, if used as a club, and too a head, there is the probability of a blunt-instrument cut. So, in today's world of tort liability, I would wrap a couple of layers of cloth around the body of the light, taping into place. It would still provide an effective thump, but be less likely to cut. "See? I was trying to avoid harming anybody!" , Art

September 11, 2001, 04:04 AM	#7
Gunter Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 279	A 3C Maglite qualifies as a short to medium "stick" (ends useful for jabs; edges for pressure application; tube may be used to strike), and as such can be used as nonlethal or as lethal force. Nonlethal use is restricted to the large muscles of the limbs (hitting joints has a high risk of permanent damage, with associated civil liability). Blows and jabs against the head or torso must be regarded as lethal force (and thus generally only permissible when someone is trying to kill you, right now).

September 12, 2001, 04:49 PM	#9
Jffal Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 1999 Posts: 364	A book of interest Armor of New Hampshire: Browsing Defensive Tactics With Flashlights http://www.shooterstore.com/acb/show...=1027&CATID=60 Contains information on liability and diagramed instructions on the defensive and offensive use of flashlights. Jeff

September 13, 2001, 12:24 PM	#10
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	Thanks... everyone for their informarion. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

September 16, 2001, 01:07 AM	#11
parabellum9x19 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2001 Posts: 113	What is the best flashlight that can be used as a baton? I am already aware of the flashlight attachment for ASP batons.

September 16, 2001, 02:07 AM	#12
parabellum9x19 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2001 Posts: 113	Does a 5 or 6 C cell Maglite work well as a baton? Are there better 5 or 6 C cell flashlights that can be used as a baton?

September 16, 2001, 03:16 AM	#13
TEXAS LAWMAN Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 1999 Posts: 304	Adrenaline Junky, John Peters wrote a small hardback book, "Defensive Use of Flashlights" (I bought my copy from Massad Ayoob's Police Bookshelf in New Hampshire in the mid-80s---I think). I can't access the book right now but believe the title is correct.

September 16, 2001, 09:47 AM	#14
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	Retired LEO friends advise me that when investigating noises in the night, my 4-C cell MagLite should be carried in my left hand, over my left shoulder, gripped so that I can operate the switch and aim it, or swing it forward for use as a club. That sucker is heavy enough to induce subdural hematoma, and tough enough so you won't hurt the flashlight. __________________ "As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms." -- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss

September 17, 2001, 11:33 PM	#15
parabellum9x19 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2001 Posts: 113	Anyone have a 5 or 6 C cell Maglite?

September 17, 2001, 11:58 PM	#16
Seeker Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: Lacomb, Oregon Posts: 1,393	Does nobody use the "D" cell maglites? Seems like the heavier D cells would make a better improvised weapon, are they too heavy? __________________ Molon Labe Seeker "The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson Don't Tread On Me! "Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" -- Thomas Jefferson In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us. -Thich Nhat Hanh

September 18, 2001, 12:31 PM	#17
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	I'm going to buy a 6 C cell flash light to keep by my bed. I have found that, even the 3 C cell light, can easily double as a powerful striking weapon. With respect to the D cell being too heavy, honestly, I'm not sure. From what I recall, the 2 D cell and the 3 C cell were approx. the same length and weight. Obviously the widths are different, that's why I chose the C cell. But I believe it all depends on what your primary purpose for the light is. The guy at the Army Surplus told me that D cells last much longer than C cells. I'm not sure if that's true or not. But I use the light while bouncing, and chose the C cell because it felt more like a baton. Both are extremely solid and equally as intimidating. I used to carry one of those mini-mag lites and, I must say, I have notice a significant difference in the time and type of response I receive. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

September 22, 2001, 08:29 AM	#18
Jffal Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 1999 Posts: 364	I have average sized hands and am most comfortable with 5 and 6 C Mags as well as the 3 D. I also have a 4 D which I leave in the car. A bit too cumbersome for me for any other purpose than illumination but it serves that function very well. That 4 D could probably be used to knock the auto windshield out if I was able to do so after an accident. With fresh batteries and xenon lamps (considerably more powerful than the standard Krypton bulps the Mags are sold with) you have an efficient multipurpose tool. Cold Steel once produced a 20 or so inch aluminum flashlight that fed off 7 AA batteries in a row. Referred to as the Brute, it offered a non-adjustable wide angle beam, on off button on the tailcap, very thick barrel. It weighed over 20 ounces but because of some critical design flaws (weak springs in the tailcap and under the shock absorber bulb housing itself), turned out to be more tempermental than Cold Steel intended. The remaining stock was sold to either US Calvary or Brigade Quartermasters, renamed The Enforcer, and eventually sold out. Flawed or not, I rather like this item. I'd like to see the design revived and improved. It would make a suitable substitute to C and D cell torches with specs that more closely resemble metal batons. Jeff

September 23, 2001, 04:13 AM	#19
parabellum9x19 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2001 Posts: 113	The old original 5D and 6D were made of a heavier aluminum. I have seen a pic of the cold steel brute. I wish it was still in production.

September 25, 2001, 11:20 AM	#20
Battlespace Junior Member Join Date: August 25, 2001 Location: Bluegrass Posts: 4	Several (no - many) years while in Germany I was talking with a military police sergeant who had spent many years handling drunk soldiers. He recommended a four cell flashlight with the handle srapped with good old fashioned black friction tape. He told me all you have to do is jam the light handle up into the crotch and then twist it sharply about 1/4 turn. The friction tape provides a good media to grip clothes, skin and whatever with. He said he never had any problems with getting whoever it was to do exactly like he was told. Granted, this is not a self defense purpose, but does show a good use for flashlights.

September 27, 2001, 07:19 PM	#21
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	I have owned and carried a rechargable MagLight for years. It is the size of a 5 D cell light. I think this is what was called the "Rodney King Special" some years back. It is heavy, and would make a darn good defensive weapon if called upon. Oh, and it has some 30K candle power brightness too. Wow. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

September 27, 2001, 11:07 PM	#22
JB-man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2001 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 117	When your life is threatened, I don't think you're gonna debate whatever you do to defend yourself is lawful or not. Some of those so-called laws are garbage, and not worth dying for. I don't think the jury's gonna nail you for defending yourself with a flashlight. But, hey, I could be wrong??? I have a mag-light, but it's only 4 inches long.

September 30, 2001, 01:04 AM	#23
swatman Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2000 Location: Pa. USA Posts: 768	May wanna check out Ayoob's book THE TRUTH ABOUT SELF DEFENSE. He has an entire chapter dealing with use of flashlights as SD weapons. __________________ "what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?" www.humanityonhold.com/intifada.html