need help with conflicting data

riverratt · March 5, 2014, 09:33 PM

Today i went to the range with factory ammo to test my new xd 9mm. The gun was perfect through 200 rounds. Now that i know it will cycle properly and have my dies set (with help from you all, thanx again) i pulled out my trusty reloading books and went to start working on making a few loads. Looking at my data from hornady and speer and i have two totally different loads? I only have unique powder and 124gr plated rn bullets. Hornady book says a min. Load of 4.2gr max load of 5gr speer says min load 5.2gr max of 6.2. The only things differnt is the case C.O.L. and primers. The first two i dont see making that big of a differance but the primer for speer is a cci 500 that is what i have and the hornady is a win primer i think. Havnt seen any wsp on the selfs but the only ones i have seen was wlp for my .45 they say they can be used as a standard or magnum primer. Is there just that big of a differance between the cci and win primers? Where should i start? Obviously i dont want to go to low with the wrong data or to high but in this case there seems to be no middle ground beings that the starting load for speer is 2/10 of a gr over the max load for hornady. So looking for imput where would the experts start? Or what load have you found with thoes componets that has proven to be a safe load. Obviously i would reduce you load and work up to it, i realy just need a good starting point. Thanks.

**Unclenick** · March 5, 2014, 10:18 PM

Actually, in pistol, you don't have to change the seating depth of a bullet very much to cause a significant percent change in the powder space underneath. So it can be a significant factor in load pressure. And COL alone won't tell the story. You have to know how deep the bullet base is in the case, and that depends on both COL and the length of the bullet.

Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL

Use the standard case length listed in the manual with that formula. You may have to call the maker to learn the bullet length, as it's not commonly given, but the JBM site as a Lengths page you might find them listed on.

Another factor is that there are up to about three grains difference in case water capacity among .45 Auto case brands, and I assume 9 mm has a similar spread, though I don't shoot 9 mm, so I can't say. But the case brand could be a factor, too.

Finally, when in doubt about conflicting data, always use the smallest starting load you find among your sources and work up. If it's way too small, the worst that can happen is a stuck bullet to knock out. Looking at your data though, I'm confident that won't happen. Worst case with the lightest charge would be failure to function a self-loader.

rg1 · March 5, 2014, 10:49 PM

Just my input on 124gr. plated and jacketed 9MM loads with Unique powder. Unique is my main 9MM powder and I use CCI 500 primers in mostly Win but other cases as well. I'd consider 4.5 grains to be a start load but mild. I'd look at loads between 4.8 and 5.2 grains of Unique with 124 gr. bullets. Overall lengths of 124 RN bullets I load are between 1.150 and 1.160" depending on the bullet. Some report using up to 5.5 grains and I would work up to this level and not go higher. As mentioned deeper seating in 9MM increases pressure. Consult all data sources and make sure you have good bullet tension in all brands of 9MM brass. Remove your barrel and use it as a case gauge to make sure your loaded rounds will chamber. Don't load too many until you've done the load testing.

riverratt · March 5, 2014, 11:50 PM

Thanks unclenick i knew that seating depth can chrg1ange pressure but the hornady c.o.l. was longer than the speer c.o.l. I never even thought two bullets of the same style could be of diffent length ill look into that.

Rg1 that sounds like a good starting point thanks. I did have trouble at first with the bullet tention but found it wasnt anything i did just thin brass. I got 100 win brass and the last 2 bags of starline at the lgs that took cair of the problem. I have already made 3 dummy rounds done the plunk test and loaded them into the mag, and cycled them by hand several times with no setback. My c.o.l. on thoes were 1.155 so it sounds like im in the ballpark. I was mainly worried about sticking a bullet if the primers were the reason for the different loads. My nearest pistol range is 90 min away, long trip to shoot once and find out it wont work. I always load 10 rounds of ea. Test load mark each case with a marker with the powder charge and c.o.l. as well as collor code them with corrasponding imfo on paper just in case.

aiming fluid · March 6, 2014, 12:40 AM

Riverrat don't sweat the primers. CCI or Winchester will both work equally well.

WESHOOT2 · March 6, 2014, 11:00 AM

5.0g Unique under any 124/125g.

Ensure an OAL minimum of 1.090". Suggest a test OAL of 1.130"+/-.005".

Any non-magnum small rifle or pistol primer.

Nick_C_S · March 6, 2014, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Is there just that big of a differance between the cci and win primers?

No. I use them interchangeably with general purpose shooter rounds. The only time I would concern myself is with top-end rounds - where I use only CCI, just to play it safe. I've never been in the situation where I had to use WSP's for top-end rounds. If I did, I'd back off the recipe by a few tenths, and work back up. Just purely as a precaution to be on the safe side.

Now that we put the primer issue to bed. Your concern is going to be with the bullet seating depth - Read Unclenick's post

riverratt · March 6, 2014, 09:49 PM

I calculated my seating depth at .164. Is that about right? I do have a very lite crimp if that will make a differance. i pulled a bullet out of one of my dummy rounds and you could inly see the crimp line on the bullet if you got it just right in the light.

March 5, 2014, 09:33 PM	#1
riverratt Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2014 Posts: 314	need help with conflicting data Today i went to the range with factory ammo to test my new xd 9mm. The gun was perfect through 200 rounds. Now that i know it will cycle properly and have my dies set (with help from you all, thanx again) i pulled out my trusty reloading books and went to start working on making a few loads. Looking at my data from hornady and speer and i have two totally different loads? I only have unique powder and 124gr plated rn bullets. Hornady book says a min. Load of 4.2gr max load of 5gr speer says min load 5.2gr max of 6.2. The only things differnt is the case C.O.L. and primers. The first two i dont see making that big of a differance but the primer for speer is a cci 500 that is what i have and the hornady is a win primer i think. Havnt seen any wsp on the selfs but the only ones i have seen was wlp for my .45 they say they can be used as a standard or magnum primer. Is there just that big of a differance between the cci and win primers? Where should i start? Obviously i dont want to go to low with the wrong data or to high but in this case there seems to be no middle ground beings that the starting load for speer is 2/10 of a gr over the max load for hornady. So looking for imput where would the experts start? Or what load have you found with thoes componets that has proven to be a safe load. Obviously i would reduce you load and work up to it, i realy just need a good starting point. Thanks. Last edited by riverratt; March 5, 2014 at 11:17 PM.

March 5, 2014, 10:18 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Actually, in pistol, you don't have to change the seating depth of a bullet very much to cause a significant percent change in the powder space underneath. So it can be a significant factor in load pressure. And COL alone won't tell the story. You have to know how deep the bullet base is in the case, and that depends on both COL and the length of the bullet. Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL Use the standard case length listed in the manual with that formula. You may have to call the maker to learn the bullet length, as it's not commonly given, but the JBM site as a Lengths page you might find them listed on. Another factor is that there are up to about three grains difference in case water capacity among .45 Auto case brands, and I assume 9 mm has a similar spread, though I don't shoot 9 mm, so I can't say. But the case brand could be a factor, too. Finally, when in doubt about conflicting data, always use the smallest starting load you find among your sources and work up. If it's way too small, the worst that can happen is a stuck bullet to knock out. Looking at your data though, I'm confident that won't happen. Worst case with the lightest charge would be failure to function a self-loader. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 6, 2014, 11:00 AM	#6
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	older than me 5.0g Unique under any 124/125g. Ensure an OAL minimum of 1.090". Suggest a test OAL of 1.130"+/-.005". Any non-magnum small rifle or pistol primer. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 5, 2014, 10:49 PM	#3
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	Just my input on 124gr. plated and jacketed 9MM loads with Unique powder. Unique is my main 9MM powder and I use CCI 500 primers in mostly Win but other cases as well. I'd consider 4.5 grains to be a start load but mild. I'd look at loads between 4.8 and 5.2 grains of Unique with 124 gr. bullets. Overall lengths of 124 RN bullets I load are between 1.150 and 1.160" depending on the bullet. Some report using up to 5.5 grains and I would work up to this level and not go higher. As mentioned deeper seating in 9MM increases pressure. Consult all data sources and make sure you have good bullet tension in all brands of 9MM brass. Remove your barrel and use it as a case gauge to make sure your loaded rounds will chamber. Don't load too many until you've done the load testing.

March 5, 2014, 11:50 PM	#4
riverratt Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2014 Posts: 314	Thanks unclenick i knew that seating depth can chrg1ange pressure but the hornady c.o.l. was longer than the speer c.o.l. I never even thought two bullets of the same style could be of diffent length ill look into that. Rg1 that sounds like a good starting point thanks. I did have trouble at first with the bullet tention but found it wasnt anything i did just thin brass. I got 100 win brass and the last 2 bags of starline at the lgs that took cair of the problem. I have already made 3 dummy rounds done the plunk test and loaded them into the mag, and cycled them by hand several times with no setback. My c.o.l. on thoes were 1.155 so it sounds like im in the ballpark. I was mainly worried about sticking a bullet if the primers were the reason for the different loads. My nearest pistol range is 90 min away, long trip to shoot once and find out it wont work. I always load 10 rounds of ea. Test load mark each case with a marker with the powder charge and c.o.l. as well as collor code them with corrasponding imfo on paper just in case.

March 6, 2014, 12:40 AM	#5
aiming fluid Member Join Date: July 1, 2010 Posts: 44	Riverrat don't sweat the primers. CCI or Winchester will both work equally well.

March 6, 2014, 09:49 PM	#8
riverratt Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2014 Posts: 314	I calculated my seating depth at .164. Is that about right? I do have a very lite crimp if that will make a differance. i pulled a bullet out of one of my dummy rounds and you could inly see the crimp line on the bullet if you got it just right in the light.