Does anybody know...

Samster1123 · October 1, 2010, 10:43 PM

Can anyone tell me what this firearm is?

S&W Kinda Guy · October 1, 2010, 11:45 PM

We will probably need more information, like...
1. Any marking or words on the gun.
2. Is it a semi-automatic or bolt action?
3. Is the magazine attached or detachable?
4. Does the barrel say what caliber?

Samster1123 · October 2, 2010, 12:31 AM

No markings.
Attached clip.
Don't know the caliber.

Additional details:

My dead grandfather gave it to me, he was in WWII.

I really don't know anything else about the gun.

BfloBill · October 2, 2010, 01:30 AM

I don't see a trigger or bolt, and the reciever doesn't look like any WW II era semi-auto.
Can you dry fire it?
Can you open the action on the reciever?
If it's non-functioning it could be a training rifle. At least that would explain the complete absence of markings.

zippy13 · October 2, 2010, 02:36 AM

From the size of the barrel, is it a shotgun? What's the diameter of the muzzle opening? Before the GCA of 1968, some shotguns were not serialized; however, most firearms have the markings of a proof house somewhere on them. Is the base of the barrel marked, perhaps in the area hidden by the stock?

JT-AR-MG42 · October 2, 2010, 05:52 AM

Samster,

That sure looks like the Walther designed VG1 to me.
8x 57mm bolt action German home guard 'last ditch' 1945 production. Very limited numbers produced and VERY few surviving. I have only a VG5, which is by far the most common.
Would need and like to see other photos, but any of the VG series rifles are rare and very marketable.
If that is indeed a VG1, then yours is strangely missing the sling cut out, the rear ring sight, and obviously the bolt and trigger group. The magazine is also strange to say the least.

Ah come on man, your info is rather vague. You say you don't know caliber.
With no offense intended, do you know the difference between a rifle and shotgun when both are bolt action? If not, describe how big the barrel diameter is.

Is the inside of the barrel grooved with rifling? Is there a front sight? I have never heard or read of any VGs having been made as shotguns.

Without more info and photos, just my guess.

I have been wrong before, JT

**Bud Helms** · October 2, 2010, 06:42 AM

Moving to Harley's Research forum ...

mapsjanhere · October 2, 2010, 08:05 AM

In the VG guns, the ejector opening is forward of the magazine, this gun has it sitting over the magazine opening. My guess is bolt action shotgun, with a missing bolt.

JT-AR-MG42 · October 2, 2010, 09:47 AM

Maps,

I beg to differ. You are correct that the port is forward of the magazine (STG series) on the Gustloff designed self loading Volkssturmgewehr or aka the model 507.
However the port is directly above the magazine (G/K43 series) on the Walther designed bolt action VG1.
Which is the rifle I stated in my first post.

Samster,

I am big enough to admit that I now believe I was hasty in my guess and wrong.

It is not a VG1. Maybe I was just seeing what I wanted to see. Lesson learned.

Good thing you didn't have a BIN!

Still hoping to read more details.

Good luck with it, JT

mapsjanhere · October 2, 2010, 10:27 AM

JT, do you have a picture of a bolt action VG-1? I found pictures of the semi-auto VG 1-5, and the bolt action VG 98 (which is a single shot K98 in very rough finish); I haven't seen anything bolt action described as VG 1.

**Mike Irwin** · October 2, 2010, 10:56 AM

I'm guessing either an early Stevens or Mossberg bolt action shotgun.

Samster1123 · October 2, 2010, 01:30 PM

Sorry. I was busy. Here's some more pictures.. hope this will help...

Samster1123 · October 2, 2010, 01:33 PM

And yes I know all of the internals are missing. That is how I got it.

mapsjanhere · October 2, 2010, 02:34 PM

Looks a lot like the Wards Westernfield shown here, but for the additional screw that presumably takes the recoil lug needed for 12 gauge.

ammo.crafter · October 2, 2010, 02:41 PM

Stevens magazine feed .410 cal bolt action shotgun....I believe.

**Mike Irwin** · October 2, 2010, 04:17 PM

Bore diameter relationship to the thickness of the barrel appears to be way too big for a .410.

James K · October 2, 2010, 10:49 PM

VG.1? VG.1-5? VG. 98? Oh, come on guys, your imagination is working overtime. Not only is it not signed by A. Hitler or have Goering's name on it, it looks nothing like a VG1 or any of the other Volksturm Gewehre.

Mike is right; it is an old shotgun, maybe a Stevens 58 or something very similar, and appears to be 20 gauge.

Jim

Samster1123 · October 3, 2010, 12:24 AM

Yeah it's old. I know that for sure.

Most of the shotguns I've seen that look similar to it, either have a carved out part on the front wood part, and have a detachable clip. This one has neither.

And again, no markings. Every gun I've seen has had markings. This is strange to me.

Samster1123 · October 3, 2010, 01:24 AM

I just found out, it was my grandfathers fathers gun. He came from the Basque region. So it's older than I would have thought. Don't know if he brought over...

Sorry for the misinformation.

**Mike Irwin** · October 3, 2010, 09:37 AM

As I understand it, bolt action shotguns are almost universally a US thing, so I suspect that it wouldn't be a European gun.

Samster1123 · October 4, 2010, 05:51 PM

I'm still confused about it having no markings.

mapsjanhere · October 4, 2010, 05:57 PM

Have you taken it out of the stock? If it's European it will have proof marks underneath the barrel. So I'm still thinking it's related to the Ward brand shotgun I linked, that knurled nut underneath and the square magazine are pretty unique. Since Montgomery Ward didn't make their own guns it's probably a rebranded Mossberg or Stevens.
Found a picture on a Gunbroker auction for a Ward Westernfield that looks very close to your action

Samster1123 · October 4, 2010, 07:50 PM

Okay. But is the mag detachable?

mega twin · October 6, 2010, 06:54 AM

looks like a mossberg 20ga. to me.

ZeSpectre · October 6, 2010, 07:13 AM

No bolt, no trigger group, etc.....it's not a gun, it's a simulation

October 1, 2010, 10:43 PM	#1
Samster1123 Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2010 Posts: 8	Does anybody know... Can anyone tell me what this firearm is?

October 2, 2010, 05:52 AM	#6
JT-AR-MG42 Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 555	Samster, That sure looks like the Walther designed VG1 to me. 8x 57mm bolt action German home guard 'last ditch' 1945 production. Very limited numbers produced and VERY few surviving. I have only a VG5, which is by far the most common. Would need and like to see other photos, but any of the VG series rifles are rare and very marketable. If that is indeed a VG1, then yours is strangely missing the sling cut out, the rear ring sight, and obviously the bolt and trigger group. The magazine is also strange to say the least. Ah come on man, your info is rather vague. You say you don't know caliber. With no offense intended, do you know the difference between a rifle and shotgun when both are bolt action? If not, describe how big the barrel diameter is. Is the inside of the barrel grooved with rifling? Is there a front sight? I have never heard or read of any VGs having been made as shotguns. Without more info and photos, just my guess. I have been wrong before, JT Last edited by JT-AR-MG42; October 2, 2010 at 08:08 AM.

October 2, 2010, 08:05 AM	#8
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	In the VG guns, the ejector opening is forward of the magazine, this gun has it sitting over the magazine opening. My guess is bolt action shotgun, with a missing bolt. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

October 2, 2010, 10:27 AM	#10
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	JT, do you have a picture of a bolt action VG-1? I found pictures of the semi-auto VG 1-5, and the bolt action VG 98 (which is a single shot K98 in very rough finish); I haven't seen anything bolt action described as VG 1. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

October 2, 2010, 10:56 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I'm guessing either an early Stevens or Mossberg bolt action shotgun. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 1, 2010, 11:45 PM	#2
S&W Kinda Guy Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: Western Kentucky Posts: 331	We will probably need more information, like... 1. Any marking or words on the gun. 2. Is it a semi-automatic or bolt action? 3. Is the magazine attached or detachable? 4. Does the barrel say what caliber?

October 2, 2010, 12:31 AM	#3
Samster1123 Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2010 Posts: 8	No markings. Attached clip. Don't know the caliber. Additional details: My dead grandfather gave it to me, he was in WWII. I really don't know anything else about the gun.

October 2, 2010, 01:30 AM	#4
BfloBill Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2010 Location: Buffalo, N.Y. Posts: 457	I don't see a trigger or bolt, and the reciever doesn't look like any WW II era semi-auto. Can you dry fire it? Can you open the action on the reciever? If it's non-functioning it could be a training rifle. At least that would explain the complete absence of markings.

October 2, 2010, 02:36 AM	#5
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	From the size of the barrel, is it a shotgun? What's the diameter of the muzzle opening? Before the GCA of 1968, some shotguns were not serialized; however, most firearms have the markings of a proof house somewhere on them. Is the base of the barrel marked, perhaps in the area hidden by the stock?

October 2, 2010, 06:42 AM	#7
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Moving to Harley's Research forum ...

October 2, 2010, 09:47 AM	#9
JT-AR-MG42 Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 555	Maps, I beg to differ. You are correct that the port is forward of the magazine (STG series) on the Gustloff designed self loading Volkssturmgewehr or aka the model 507. However the port is directly above the magazine (G/K43 series) on the Walther designed bolt action VG1. Which is the rifle I stated in my first post. Samster, I am big enough to admit that I now believe I was hasty in my guess and wrong. It is not a VG1. Maybe I was just seeing what I wanted to see. Lesson learned. Good thing you didn't have a BIN! Still hoping to read more details. Good luck with it, JT

October 2, 2010, 01:30 PM	#12
Samster1123 Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2010 Posts: 8	Sorry. I was busy. Here's some more pictures.. hope this will help...

October 2, 2010, 01:33 PM	#13
Samster1123 Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2010 Posts: 8	And yes I know all of the internals are missing. That is how I got it.

October 2, 2010, 02:34 PM	#14
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Looks a lot like the Wards Westernfield shown here, but for the additional screw that presumably takes the recoil lug needed for 12 gauge. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

October 2, 2010, 02:41 PM	#15
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	bang Stevens magazine feed .410 cal bolt action shotgun....I believe. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

October 2, 2010, 04:17 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Bore diameter relationship to the thickness of the barrel appears to be way too big for a .410. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 2, 2010, 10:49 PM	#17
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	VG.1? VG.1-5? VG. 98? Oh, come on guys, your imagination is working overtime. Not only is it not signed by A. Hitler or have Goering's name on it, it looks nothing like a VG1 or any of the other Volksturm Gewehre. Mike is right; it is an old shotgun, maybe a Stevens 58 or something very similar, and appears to be 20 gauge. Jim

October 3, 2010, 12:24 AM	#18
Samster1123 Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2010 Posts: 8	Yeah it's old. I know that for sure. Most of the shotguns I've seen that look similar to it, either have a carved out part on the front wood part, and have a detachable clip. This one has neither. And again, no markings. Every gun I've seen has had markings. This is strange to me.

October 3, 2010, 01:24 AM	#19
Samster1123 Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2010 Posts: 8	I just found out, it was my grandfathers fathers gun. He came from the Basque region. So it's older than I would have thought. Don't know if he brought over... Sorry for the misinformation.

October 3, 2010, 09:37 AM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	As I understand it, bolt action shotguns are almost universally a US thing, so I suspect that it wouldn't be a European gun. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 4, 2010, 05:51 PM	#21
Samster1123 Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2010 Posts: 8	I'm still confused about it having no markings.

October 4, 2010, 07:50 PM	#23
Samster1123 Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2010 Posts: 8	Okay. But is the mag detachable?

October 6, 2010, 06:54 AM	#24
mega twin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2006 Posts: 434	looks like a mossberg 20ga. to me.

October 6, 2010, 07:13 AM	#25
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	No bolt, no trigger group, etc.....it's not a gun, it's a simulation __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"