Question someone's NFA item, Yes or No?

1911rocks · January 8, 2010, 06:31 PM

If you were shooting at a public or private range and a stranger was firing a NFA item (SBR, Suppressed, SBS, Select Fire Weapon or AOW) would you ask him if he had his Form 4 with him? Would you inform the authorities? or Walk away?

Hkmp5sd · January 8, 2010, 06:44 PM

Ain't none of my business.

And if you ask to see my Form 4(s) and are not a LEO, you will most definately not like the answer.

jaguarxk120 · January 8, 2010, 06:50 PM

A public range it would fall on the owner of range to ask. At a private range you are already there as a member thus all members know the rules and would have proper documention with them.

paull · January 8, 2010, 07:00 PM

I'm not a cop...
I would expect any other non-LEO to afford me the same courtesy.
Heck, I've had LEO's in uniform ask to try my NFA stuff, w/o asking any silly questions.
YMMV.
p

Willie Lowman · January 8, 2010, 07:41 PM

If you want to ask about something like that you should not be rude about how you ask.

Something like "Hey buddy, nice MP5! Is that a dealer sample or a transferable?" If they say one way or the other, they probably have the proper paperwork for it. If the response is "Wha? Dealer sample? Transferable? What do you mean?" They probably don't have papers for it.

Or you could run into someone who is sick of those stupid questions that will tell you that they are a CIA assassin or something crazy just to watch your reaction.

jmorris · January 8, 2010, 07:50 PM

or you could act stupid and say "Cool, how can I get one of those?" the answer will let you know. Again, if they are not messing with you.

Chipperman · January 8, 2010, 07:53 PM

I've never had anyone ask about the legal status of mine. If a stranger came up and asked to see my Forms, they would be met with a hairy eyeball, and a question of, "Who wants to know?"

When people see me shooting my machine guns, they usually smile and keep their distance. When I stop to load mags, they will either say nothing or say, "Cool gun", or a similar remark.

richmondtx · January 8, 2010, 08:58 PM

I think its rude to poke your nose in someone else's business. If the range allows NFA, I mind my own business, let the person shooting have their fun and compliment them as they are part of a very unique and distinctive club...folks...its NFA...it ain't cheap nor is it easy to acquire these weapons. I've shot my NFA goodies, others have as well without ever a question or glance. We have a policy at our private NFA range...toough guys, curious guys and jerks get thrown out by the owner period...without refunds. We pre-pay for a year, a year in advance and he only has 300 members, the waiting list is huge.

We had one guy who became a LEO (Deputy Sheriff) and he was a member of the range, who decided that he wanted to see paperwork from everyone one shooting two months ago...well everyone had their paperwork, per our range rules and we all knew this guy, but he wanted to be difficult about it. The irony is that the range falls outside his jurisdiction as he was a LEO for a neighboring county. The owner threw him out for harassing patrons without cause and told him to show up with a warrant or keep his butt off private property. Most of my friends are LEOs and they don't know anything about NFA law...heck one of my high school friends is an agent with BATFE and he says that the agents aren't walking encyclopedias on NFA law either. The avg. LEO isn't going to know a Form 1 from a Form 4...they aren't going to know if the forms are real or fake..the only way to find out is to call the NFA Branch and run the serial. I for one keep copies of my forms with my NFA toys, the originals are in a fire proof water tight vault.

David Hineline · January 8, 2010, 10:00 PM

I would most likely go over and say. I will show you mine if you show me yours. Anything else would be equal to going to you and getting the serial number off your 1911 and calling the police to see if it's stolen.

James K · January 8, 2010, 10:08 PM

Even as a LEO, I always assumed something like that was legal unless I had reason not to. Machineguns are legal in this state, and I really had no more cause to ask for papers than I would have had to check the registration of the cars in the parking lot.

As a private citizen, I have NO authority to ask anything or do anything unless the item is illegal on its face (e.g. if machineguns were illegal), in which case I have the duty as a citizen to report a what I believe is a crime. (Not all citizens would do that, and maybe I wouldn't either, but technically it should be done.)

Jim

gyvel · January 10, 2010, 02:51 AM

Surprise! An LEO doesn't even have the authority to request a Form 4. By ATF regs, you are only required to show your paperwork to an ATF agent.

Forty.Five · January 10, 2010, 10:49 AM

It's no ones business but the person shooting. I would leave them alone, as long as the range says you can't use NFA items there.

hogdogs · January 10, 2010, 10:52 AM

.45,

Quote:

as long as the range says you can't use NFA items there.

I think you meant "as long as the range says you can use NFA items there."

Brent

golf97 · January 10, 2010, 02:10 PM

Don't your forms have personal information on them? Unless its LE asking, I don't see any reason to afford someone like that an answer. If someone wants to call the cops about it, and report "i'm not sure if this guy's gun is legal, can you come ask him?", go for it but you may not get any support.

Chipperman · January 10, 2010, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Don't your forms have personal information on them? Unless its LE asking, I don't see any reason to afford someone like that an answer.

Yes they do have personal info on them. As stated above, even LEOs don't have a real legal right to see them, as they are tax forms.

With that said, if I were ever accosted at the range by a LEO who would not back down, I would probably end up showing the forms. In a case like that, it's not worth being in the right if you end up in the back of a cruiser for it.

noyes · January 10, 2010, 02:58 PM

Hmmmm
How to harass others at the gun range...........

If you see someone being un-safe ..thats one thing . What they are shooting is their business.

But than there was the time 3 S.W.A.T. sharp shoots came over to ask me if ...oh well that's another thread.

sonick808 · January 10, 2010, 03:23 PM

i'd be shocked if someone that wasn't a range employee was asking other shooters for their papers. If that was someone's opening sentence to me, I'd probably tell them to get away from me and tell the RM i'm being quizzed by non-employees.

Hkmp5sd · January 10, 2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Surprise! An LEO doesn't even have the authority to request a Form 4. By ATF regs, you are only required to show your paperwork to an ATF agent.

Surprise! In the state of Florida, NFA items are illegal unless properly registered with ATF. Therefore a LEO may request to see proof of your documentation. You can show him at the range or ATF can show him at the station, while you and your NFA items are "detained".

RAnb · January 10, 2010, 04:52 PM

Quote:

If you were shooting at a public or private range and a stranger was firing a NFA item (SBR, Suppressed, SBS, Select Fire Weapon or AOW) would you ask him if he had his Form 4 with him? Would you inform the authorities? or Walk away?

I am assuming that this is a shooting in the USA where NFA are legal scenario? I would be just as likely to ask if the guns he was shooting were stolen, that if the wife who was shooting with him was also his sister or if the car he arrived in was hot. It really is none of my business if he is legal or not as long as he is behaving in a safe manner.

On the other hand for example, if his silencer was made from a coke bottle or some other dubious material I might ask if the $200 tax he paid with the ATF form 1 was worth the cost of the materials. If he gave me a blank look which indicated that he was not aware of the legal requirements, then I would politely explain that while title 2 weapons are legal in most states, the routine ATF authorization also comes along with a $200 tax and there are nasty fines and jail time for those who evade registration or the tax.

Ranb

RAnb · January 10, 2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Surprise! In the state of Florida, NFA items are illegal unless properly registered with ATF. Therefore a LEO may request to see proof of your documentation. You can show him at the range or ATF can show him at the station, while you and your NFA items are "detained".

From my search of the FL statues (790.001), silencers are only mentioned (as weapons) to define them as firearms. I saw nothing that requires their registration in FL law.

Looking at; http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...790/ch0790.htm I see that silencers are not mentioned as a weapon that is banned except when registered. What am I missing?

Quote:

790.221 Possession of short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or machine gun; penalty.--

(1) It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or machine gun which is, or may readily be made, operable; but this section shall not apply to antique firearms.
(2) A person who violates this section commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(3) Firearms in violation hereof which are lawfully owned and possessed under provisions of federal law are excepted.

Even if the law says a silencer has to be registered, a person will has the right to refuse to show the ATF form that it is registered on. Showing it is usually the easiest way to avoid arrest and is something I would do when questioned by the police in a state where registration is required. I live in WA where registration of silencers is not required, but I ended up showing my form 1's to the TSA so they would let me on the plane with silencers in my checked luggage. I was not in the mood to tell them to pack sand, that day.

Ranb

p99guy · January 10, 2010, 05:27 PM

Go over and tell him noboby should have a gun like that, and that even if he has papers it still urinates you off, and offends you.

to the two so far that answered call the cops....get a life, closet antigun posers.

WoofersInc · January 10, 2010, 05:39 PM

Trouble here in Vegas is that NFA stuff is so common that you would spend all of your time asking for papers.

Seriously though, If someone that was not LEO asked for proof of legality I would tell them to drop dead. It's none of their buisness. I have never asked about the paperwork on all of the NFA stuff I have come across here. Nor would I. It's still none of my buisness.

Hkmp5sd · January 10, 2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:

I was not in the mood to tell them to pack sand, that day.

When you feel like it, come on down to Florida and tell them to pack sand.

Oddly enough, I have owned machineguns and suppressors for over 20 years and have never been asked by anyone (ATF, LEO or range owner) to see any of my forms.

medalguy · January 10, 2010, 07:29 PM

Same here. I've owned machine guns since the mid-60's and only ONCE was I ever questioned about the status of a weapon. That was by someone, with his young son beside him, who very politely asked if the gun was legal because he always thought machine guns were illegal. I quickly explained about registration and transfer taxes and he said thank you, they look really neat. Can I shoot it one time? Of course I let him and gave his son some brass. Result? Two very happy .22 shooters left the range that day.

This said, if I saw someone with a MG I would either ignore him or comment on what a neat gun he had and how much fun mg's are to shoot, and let the conversation go where it may. It's none of my business as to whether it's registered or not.

hoytinak · January 10, 2010, 07:35 PM

The only things I've ever been asked about mine was if they could shoot it and how to go about owning one themselves after they shot it. I'll sometimes see a guy out at the range shooting his full-auto AK-47 and a P22 with a Gemtech Outback on it....I've never asked him about those and he's never asked me about my M16.

View Poll Results: Would you inquire about a NFA Weapon
I would ask for a Form 4	2	2.11%
I would inform authorities	2	2.11%
Just let them be	91	95.79%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

January 8, 2010, 06:31 PM	#1
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	Question someone's NFA item, Yes or No? If you were shooting at a public or private range and a stranger was firing a NFA item (SBR, Suppressed, SBS, Select Fire Weapon or AOW) would you ask him if he had his Form 4 with him? Would you inform the authorities? or Walk away?

January 8, 2010, 06:44 PM	#2
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Ain't none of my business. And if you ask to see my Form 4(s) and are not a LEO, you will most definately not like the answer. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

January 8, 2010, 08:58 PM	#8
richmondtx Member Join Date: December 19, 2009 Location: The Lone Star State Posts: 39	I think its rude to poke your nose in someone else's business. If the range allows NFA, I mind my own business, let the person shooting have their fun and compliment them as they are part of a very unique and distinctive club...folks...its NFA...it ain't cheap nor is it easy to acquire these weapons. I've shot my NFA goodies, others have as well without ever a question or glance. We have a policy at our private NFA range...toough guys, curious guys and jerks get thrown out by the owner period...without refunds. We pre-pay for a year, a year in advance and he only has 300 members, the waiting list is huge. We had one guy who became a LEO (Deputy Sheriff) and he was a member of the range, who decided that he wanted to see paperwork from everyone one shooting two months ago...well everyone had their paperwork, per our range rules and we all knew this guy, but he wanted to be difficult about it. The irony is that the range falls outside his jurisdiction as he was a LEO for a neighboring county. The owner threw him out for harassing patrons without cause and told him to show up with a warrant or keep his butt off private property. Most of my friends are LEOs and they don't know anything about NFA law...heck one of my high school friends is an agent with BATFE and he says that the agents aren't walking encyclopedias on NFA law either. The avg. LEO isn't going to know a Form 1 from a Form 4...they aren't going to know if the forms are real or fake..the only way to find out is to call the NFA Branch and run the serial. I for one keep copies of my forms with my NFA toys, the originals are in a fire proof water tight vault. Last edited by richmondtx; January 8, 2010 at 09:09 PM.

January 10, 2010, 05:27 PM	#21
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	Go over and tell him noboby should have a gun like that, and that even if he has papers it still urinates you off, and offends you. to the two so far that answered call the cops....get a life, closet antigun posers. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

January 8, 2010, 06:50 PM	#3
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	A public range it would fall on the owner of range to ask. At a private range you are already there as a member thus all members know the rules and would have proper documention with them.

January 8, 2010, 07:00 PM	#4
paull Junior member Join Date: November 9, 1999 Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston Posts: 157	I'm not a cop... I would expect any other non-LEO to afford me the same courtesy. Heck, I've had LEO's in uniform ask to try my NFA stuff, w/o asking any silly questions. YMMV. p

January 8, 2010, 07:41 PM	#5
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	If you want to ask about something like that you should not be rude about how you ask. Something like "Hey buddy, nice MP5! Is that a dealer sample or a transferable?" If they say one way or the other, they probably have the proper paperwork for it. If the response is "Wha? Dealer sample? Transferable? What do you mean?" They probably don't have papers for it. Or you could run into someone who is sick of those stupid questions that will tell you that they are a CIA assassin or something crazy just to watch your reaction.

January 8, 2010, 07:50 PM	#6
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	or you could act stupid and say "Cool, how can I get one of those?" the answer will let you know. Again, if they are not messing with you.

January 8, 2010, 07:53 PM	#7
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	I've never had anyone ask about the legal status of mine. If a stranger came up and asked to see my Forms, they would be met with a hairy eyeball, and a question of, "Who wants to know?" When people see me shooting my machine guns, they usually smile and keep their distance. When I stop to load mags, they will either say nothing or say, "Cool gun", or a similar remark.

January 8, 2010, 10:00 PM	#9
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	I would most likely go over and say. I will show you mine if you show me yours. Anything else would be equal to going to you and getting the serial number off your 1911 and calling the police to see if it's stolen.

January 8, 2010, 10:08 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Even as a LEO, I always assumed something like that was legal unless I had reason not to. Machineguns are legal in this state, and I really had no more cause to ask for papers than I would have had to check the registration of the cars in the parking lot. As a private citizen, I have NO authority to ask anything or do anything unless the item is illegal on its face (e.g. if machineguns were illegal), in which case I have the duty as a citizen to report a what I believe is a crime. (Not all citizens would do that, and maybe I wouldn't either, but technically it should be done.) Jim

January 10, 2010, 02:51 AM	#11
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Surprise! An LEO doesn't even have the authority to request a Form 4. By ATF regs, you are only required to show your paperwork to an ATF agent.

January 10, 2010, 10:49 AM	#12
Forty.Five Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Posts: 24	It's no ones business but the person shooting. I would leave them alone, as long as the range says you can't use NFA items there.

January 10, 2010, 02:10 PM	#14
golf97 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2007 Posts: 105	Don't your forms have personal information on them? Unless its LE asking, I don't see any reason to afford someone like that an answer. If someone wants to call the cops about it, and report "i'm not sure if this guy's gun is legal, can you come ask him?", go for it but you may not get any support.

January 10, 2010, 02:58 PM	#16
noyes Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 1,032	Hmmmm How to harass others at the gun range........... If you see someone being un-safe ..thats one thing . What they are shooting is their business. But than there was the time 3 S.W.A.T. sharp shoots came over to ask me if ...oh well that's another thread.

January 10, 2010, 03:23 PM	#17
sonick808 Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 396	i'd be shocked if someone that wasn't a range employee was asking other shooters for their papers. If that was someone's opening sentence to me, I'd probably tell them to get away from me and tell the RM i'm being quizzed by non-employees.

January 10, 2010, 05:39 PM	#22
WoofersInc Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 224	Trouble here in Vegas is that NFA stuff is so common that you would spend all of your time asking for papers. Seriously though, If someone that was not LEO asked for proof of legality I would tell them to drop dead. It's none of their buisness. I have never asked about the paperwork on all of the NFA stuff I have come across here. Nor would I. It's still none of my buisness.

January 10, 2010, 07:29 PM	#24
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,033	Same here. I've owned machine guns since the mid-60's and only ONCE was I ever questioned about the status of a weapon. That was by someone, with his young son beside him, who very politely asked if the gun was legal because he always thought machine guns were illegal. I quickly explained about registration and transfer taxes and he said thank you, they look really neat. Can I shoot it one time? Of course I let him and gave his son some brass. Result? Two very happy .22 shooters left the range that day. This said, if I saw someone with a MG I would either ignore him or comment on what a neat gun he had and how much fun mg's are to shoot, and let the conversation go where it may. It's none of my business as to whether it's registered or not.

January 10, 2010, 07:35 PM	#25
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	The only things I've ever been asked about mine was if they could shoot it and how to go about owning one themselves after they shot it. I'll sometimes see a guy out at the range shooting his full-auto AK-47 and a P22 with a Gemtech Outback on it....I've never asked him about those and he's never asked me about my M16.

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