Your tactics for a sudden close-quarter attack

[armsmaster270]

You can draw & fire effectivly as you are backpeddaling and blocking a knife at the same time, there are retention draws that work quite well when someone is almost on top of you..

You can also fire from inside a jacket pocket quite effectivly if you take the time to practice. While your doing this Manuver to safety.

[CWPinSC]

and a lot are done with non lethal force.

Just what is "non-lethal" force? It's FORCE, plain and simple. ANY force can become lethal, even a bare fist.
Once the mess goes down, things can go sour FAST.

As far as weapons MO's, sometimes the gun is brandished from the waistband,

That's all the intent (opportunity and ability already in place) I'd need. "If someone comes at you with a gun, you must assume they intend to use it." If someone robs you, and you don't believe he will use his weapon, you'll just ignore him. Sounds pretty iffy to me.

show them your gun (the muzzle).

At that point, I'm doing more than just showing. Bluff is no good. If it's called, you'll be behind in the curve again.

Sometimes street robberies are done in groups. Sometimes these groups are armed. When not armed, drawing is probably an option.

At what point does a group robbery turn into a gang attack? Sounds like a fine line here.

If you let somebody get inside the circle where you don't have enough time to draw your weapon, you ****ed up somewhere.

That's a good point. If you're involved in a fair fight, your tactics s**k.

draw your weapon from its holster and keep it on your side (so as not to menace).

Good idea. Except, in SC, you're already "menacing" and have already "used deadly force".

And stop worrying about the army of bad guys and think about the street robbery scenario.

Like I asked above, where is the line that separates an armed street robbery from a gang attack? If a weapon is used, the assumption is it may be used to force the victim to comply.

"Give us your wallet."
may easily escalate to:
"Gimme that damn wallet or I'll bust a cap in your a$$!"

The line just got crossed.

[jtc2162]

Just what is "non-lethal" force? It's FORCE, plain and simple. ANY force can become lethal, even a bare fist.
Once the mess goes down, things can go sour FAST.

What I mean by that is I'm walking by you on a dark street and out of nowhere I punch you on your face and lay your ass out. I then take your wallet and run. Shooting somebody for punching you and trying to grab your wallet up here will not fly. Giving said attempted robber a pounding to remember will put smiles on the faces of many local cops.

Remember, these guys are not out for your life, or even to pound you. They want your wallet / cell phone / money.

Re: The waistband brandishing

That's all the intent (opportunity and ability already in place) I'd need. "If someone comes at you with a gun, you must assume they intend to use it." If someone robs you, and you don't believe he will use his weapon, you'll just ignore him. Sounds pretty iffy to me.

At that point, I'm doing more than just showing. Bluff is no good. If it's called, you'll be behind in the curve again.

If you want to shoot the guy who has shown you a gun in his waistband, go for it. That's enough for me to draw, and if he does to you better believe there will be some rounds in the air.

At what point does a group robbery turn into a gang attack? Sounds like a fine line here.

Probably when you resist and fail? I think you guys are just a little bit paranoid. They're not out to kill. They want to take your belongings with as little resistance and danger to themselves as possible. What level of resistance you employ is obviously going to be determined on a case by case basis, and in a split second. Good luck,

And P.S. - unholstering your gun on that dark street won't be a crime unless there is somebody standing on your strong side. If there is, and **** goes down, nobody is going to care. If your instincts are telling you that you're in danger, get it out and hold it at your side.

[WARRIOR I]

Quote: "Shooting someone for punching you and trying to grab your wallet
up here will not fly."

Hence the 'Castle Doctrine'. Fortunately, we have it DOWN HERE.

[smince]

If you let somebody get inside the circle where you don't have enough time to draw your weapon, you ****ed up somewhere.

How often do you go about your day without letting someone get that close?

Unless you live in the woods or a cave somewhere, people are going to get inside that circle pretty regularly. That's part of where being 'behind the curve' comes from.

We can't be drawing on everyone who gets within 21 feet of us, and despite common teachings, it's practically impossible to stay semi-alert all the time.

[CWPinSC]

Quote: "Shooting someone for punching you and trying to grab your wallet up here will not fly."

It flies down here, fur sur, Warrior I. Castle Doctrine and no duty to retreat. If the attacker is more fit or larger than I am, I could believe myself to be "in imminent danger of...grave bodily injury." My wife is a large lady and not fit. Perfect target. I've told her, if she's attacked, empty the magazine into him. We'll worry about the legalities later.

If all the BGs only want to rob you, why are they carrying guns? Down here, you don't carry a gun unless you're fully prepared to use it to enforce your will - be you BG or GG.

We can't be drawing on everyone who gets within 21 feet of us, and despite common teachings, it's practically impossible to stay semi-alert all the time.

Very true. That's where your "spider sense" and realization of the area you're in come into play. In my back yard in the middle of a Sunday afternoon, I'm at Defcon 5 - fat and happy. At a convenience store at 2 in the morning, almost out of gas, in a bad part of town I had to drive through, I'm at Defcon 2 - watching everyone, and expecting rain (IF you know what I mean).

[jtc2162]

I'm not talking about all day. I'm talking about late at night, walking to your car in the parking lot, walking home from your car on the street, etc. The people who you have to think twice about under those circumstances are the people you shouldn't let inside your bubble, whatever it may be. Cross the street. Walk down the middle of it.

[jtc2162]

If all the BGs only want to rob you, why are they carrying guns? Down here, you don't carry a gun unless you're fully prepared to use it to enforce your will - be you BG or GG.

Carrying a gun and being prepared to use it is your logic (and mine). Just because you and I think that way doesn't mean that your average street robber uses the same reasoning.

They carry a gun (or other weapon) because the vast vast vast majority of their victims are unarmed, and the gun gives them the appearance of force superiority. Would you go around robbing somebody without some type of weapon? Does every gunpoint robbery victim wind up getting shot? Of course not, it almost never happens!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Watch the language filter or you go bye bye and can get tactical advice elsewhere.

[ZeSpectre]

jtc2162 said

Remember, these guys are not out for your life, or even to pound you. They want your wallet / cell phone / money.

Really, does that matter?

If another person presents a weapon and a demand for you to comply then it just INSTANTLY stopped being about property and started being about the threat to you. At that point I consider pretty easy to make the case of "I considered myself to be in mortal jeopardy" since someone has, in essence, told you "your money or your life" and I'd have no reason to doubt the threat from someone accosting me with a weapon.

Also, while it is possible that they are just bluffing the presentation of a weapon INSTANTLY moves everything into the "lethal force" arena. At that point I'm sure not going to depend on "morals" or mercy from someone who is so maladjusted to accost me with a weapon in the first place.

[jtc2162]

Watch the language filter or you go bye bye and can get tactical advice elsewhere.

We are talking about shooting and killing aggressors. I didn't think anyone might be offended by a four letter word or two.

[MLeake]

Warrior I, you might want to recheck what the CD means in your area.

I don't know of any Castle Doctrine that allows you to shoot a person who has already assaulted you and is now leaving.

I believe in TX you could actually shoot if he's just attacked you and is leaving with your wallet, because I seem to recall reading that in Texas you can actually use deadly force if he's fleeing with your property, still in sight, and you don't have another reasonable way to recover it. But I'm not positive of that, and I'm not recommending it; even if it's so, it isn't part of a Castle Doctrine.

[WARRIOR I]

My mistake, I missed the "take your wallet and run" line.

[Capt. Charlie]

I didn't think anyone might be offended by a four letter word or two.

jtc2162, please review TFL's forum rules, with emphasis on rule #2.

2) Language that would be inappropriate in the polite company of strangers is quite unwelcome here.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Forum rules are forum rules. You are guests here.

So harken unto me. Deliberate use of curse words after warning leads to an electronic COM.

[old bear]

If you can’t retreat, which should, always, be our first option. If you are convinced your life or the life of a loved one is in danger then you have no choice but to go 100% aggressive. If you MUST get your most effective weapon in action now, if it is a firearm use it don’t threaten! If it is a knife start cutting now, if you are unarmed grab the closest attacker by the throat squeeze as hard as you can as you are doing this take him to the ground and DO NOT let go. Yes, you will get hit either by him or his cronies, but DO NOT let go. If you have to bite off an ear, or nose, if there is more than one attacker you may not win the fight, but you will have given as much as you got, and sadly some times that’s the best we can hope for.

The above was not pleasant to think about much less advice someone to do, but sadly we sometimes live in an ugly world.

Be safe all.

[Tucker 1371]

Remember, these guys are not out for your life, or even to pound you. They want your wallet / cell phone / money.

I beg to differ, I have three friends who have been mugged in the last year. None of the guys had guns, probably knives though. They got the living crap beat out of them, it isn't going to happen to me. I don't care what they want, they won't get it without getting hurt, badly.

[Nnobby45]

If another person presents a weapon and a demand for you to comply then it just INSTANTLY stopped being about property and started being about the threat to you.

That's correct, but it becomes more than that.

Let's not forget that a large % of knife attack victims thought they were being punched while they were being stabbed--or that compliance by handing over your wallet doesn't guarantee that you won't be injured or killed.

And lets not forget that our liberties were paid for with the blood of American soldiers who, IMO, didn't sacrafice their lives only to see us give up those liberties by surrendering our wallets to meet the demands of criminals or bureaucratic gas bags whose laws would require us to do so.


Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Glenn Dee]

There isnt much difference in being dead from a knife and being dead from a gun. Dead is dead... The big difference as I see it is... Knives dont run out of bullets. I'd treat a person armed with a knife exactly the same as I would one with a gun. In fact I'd say at very close quarters a knife is even more dangerous.

[Glenn Dee]

I'd like to add one thing regarding civilian self defense tactics. As an armed civilian you have a tactical advantage in most situations. That advantage is surprise. In my experience I've found most predators to be Lazy, cowardly, and well... not too bright. They prey on the weak, frail, infirm and anyone they think will give the most profit with the least resistance. in other words they expect their weapon, physical atributes, or demeanor to intimidate you. They have their game plan... and it's probably worked countless times before... The surprise of your resisting them throws a wrench in the machine. Imagine the upset they experience when they find a victim better armed than they are.

This is a little off topic, but it's something to think about. Dont squander the tactical advantage of surprise. Consider that advantage when selecting a weapon, and method for C/C.

[Blue Steel]

Speed. Surprise. Violence of Action.

[RPB]

I agree with CelticWolf's response in post number 9 above
"USE MY HEAD!!!!!!!!!!.... because that is the greatest weapon of all..."

But only because it's worked for me really well twice so far,
(1) when the 2 guys with .38s robbed us (they got away with $200.00 in change) and ...
(2) when the 5 guys with 2 Sawed off Shotguns and at least 3 pistols, who left a Kroger Grocery store employee in critical condition the week before, robbed us (they all got caught just walking down the street minutes after leaving our store).

I've since moved to a better city

I was going to share details of those 2 times de-escalation actually worked very well for me, but the only thread which I found so far with deescalation in the title was asking "what would you do if..." which asked about almost the exact same situations I was in, had been closed, I guess for asking hypothetical scenarios, so I can't reply there as to what I actually did. I may post about what I actually did later, after I get a bit more familiar with this forum, I'm pretty new here still.

[Claims Rep.]

If I know it's either my life or theirs, then I shoot the first guy in the head (I'm very proficient with my .45). Hopefully that will make the other bad guys think twice. If they continue towards me with my demise planned, then they, like their now-deceased lead guy will meet my .45 rounds...

[zombieslayer]

Create distance, get to your weapon

[BCeagle]

My take:
.Create distance.
.Do not expose the handgun if they are in touching distance because they may make a move for it and could grab it faster then you can point and shoot.
.Once you have distance draw your weapon and if they persist shoot the alpha if it is justifiable.