.38 Special 200 gr Winchester Western Super Police Load?

Doug.38PR · December 25, 2005, 04:59 PM

I just got Chic Gaylord's Handgunners Guide (see amazon.com) as a stocking stuffer and he speaks about a 200 gr .38 special bullet called the Winchester Western Super Police Load. He considered it the best of all defense loads in the .38 special caliber. Is there any such load still around? The bullet looks almost like a big lightbulb sticking out of a lamp in the picture compared to the .38 hp and wadcutter and LRN rounds next to it. The heaviest bullet I can find is the 158 gr +P LWCHP

Bulldozer · December 25, 2005, 05:20 PM

Dated information, and one of the few things Gaylord was wrong on....

juliet charley · December 25, 2005, 05:36 PM

The 200-grain Super Police had a pretty good reputation among those who actually used it back then. The 158-grain +P LSWCHP is probably a better load, but it wasn't available back then. I not so sure Gaylord had it wrong as much as his advice was simply OBE'd.

Sir William · December 25, 2005, 05:52 PM

Gaylord fixated on trivialities. He was never wrong, he just didn't try to reinvent the wheel. He designed excellent holsters but, he relied on others for their opinions/data that wasn't scientifically proved. The 38 in a 200 gr form really wasn't much. Modern JHPs and powders could make it a screamer though.

Doug.38PR · December 25, 2005, 08:16 PM

Quote:

The 158-grain +P LSWCHP is probably a better load, but it wasn't available back then. I not so sure Gaylord had it wrong as much as his advice was simply OBE'd.

Well, I think the LSWCHP 158 gr was in his lineup of .38 rounds. At least that's what it looked like in the picture. I think he called it "the Keith load." In the picture it didn't break up (or mushroom) as as well as the Super Police load in the fired samples in his picture.
However, it might be that the LSWCHP/Keith load wasn't a +P round and didn't have that extra power behind it. I see nowhere him mentioning +P or anything saying that the bullet has any extra punch behind it apart from standard .38 special load. He does however like to emphasize hand loading cartridges to prime power and recommends a lineup of guns from that day that would handle it.

Quote:

The 38 in a 200 gr form really wasn't much. Modern JHPs and powders could make it a screamer though.

Ahem, why then doesn't somebody come out with such a round then! Sounds like a good idea to me

ISP2605 · December 25, 2005, 08:24 PM

I've run quite a few 200 gr yrs ago. The 200 gr load usually ran about 600 fps out of a 4" brl. Run them in a 2" and the speed dropped off to just above 500 fps. In its day, compared to the then standard police load of 158 gr LRN, the 200 was advertised as being better. Whether it really was or not is debatable. It probably gave more penetration altho penetration was not an issue with the 158 LRN.

Jim Watson · December 25, 2005, 09:02 PM

I don't know what Chic Gaylord thought a "Keith load" was, other than a cast holowpoint, but ol' Elmer loaded it with 13.5 grains of 2400 in Special brass. That is good for over 1200 fps and is far ahead of any modern +P+ and beats many brands of magnums. Gaylord had to say about the hollowpoint: "It is so deadly that the majority of police departments frown upon its use. There is the possibility of legal repercussions in the event of a wounding or a fatality of an innocent bystander resulting from the use of these lethal projectiles." We now worry more about "overpenetration" if we DON'T use hollowpoints, but the terminal ballistics were less studied in 1960 when Handgunner's Guide came out. He might have been right, though. I worry more about where the misses go, not the shoot-throughs.

A snubby with Super Police is not a real powerful weapon, but I found it no trouble to load a 200 gr bullet to 1100 fps in a 4" magnum. That would hit hard with the soft swaged factory bullet, and is a load Gaylord recommended.

Doug.38PR · December 25, 2005, 09:45 PM

I'll have to go back and relook at "Keith load." In fact, I might just snap a shot of the page with my cell camera and post it here.

ISP2605 · December 25, 2005, 09:49 PM

What's usually referred to as the "Keith load" is loaded as Jim Watson described except it's not a HP. Keith ran hard cast SWC. His was a hunting load.

Tamara · December 25, 2005, 09:56 PM

The problem with the 200gr Super Police load is that, out of anything shorter than a 4"-5" barrel, its velocity is so low that it may bounce off things that you'd expect a handgun load to penetrate...

Jim Watson · December 25, 2005, 10:09 PM

ISP2605, before you pass along the idea that I make this stuff up, you might ought to refer to page 272 of 'Sixguns' where Elmer says:
".38/44 Special. Keith 160 grain hollow point or hollow base bullet sized .357 or .358. Hercules #2400 powder. Charge 13.5 grains with either of the Ideal catalog numbers of this bullet: #358429 or #358431, the bullets being crimped in the crimp groove. Remington .38/44 cases and primers."

grimjaw · December 25, 2005, 10:09 PM

it may bounce off things that you'd expect a handgun load to penetrate

So that's how they make rubber bullets!

jmm

ISP2605 · December 25, 2005, 10:15 PM

"ISP2605, before you pass along the idea that I make this stuff up"

Take a chill dude. You're reading stuff that I never said anything of the sort. Lighten up. I quite familar with the "Keith load". I was agreeing with you. What I was pointing out was what's usually referred to as the "Keith load" was with a hard cast, sharp shoulder SWC.
Don't be so defensive. I was siding with you.

Jim Watson · December 25, 2005, 10:37 PM

Your'e right.
The difference is you were talking about what is "usually referred to as the Keith load" and I was going by what Elmer Keith actually said and did.
I am sorry I did not pick up the fine difference.

ISP2605 · December 25, 2005, 10:46 PM

Not a problem.
Casting a HP is a pain in the behind, particularly if one is trying for a really hard cast bullet. The HP plug just doesn't give a good of a HP cavity as commercial HP bullets. They just aren't all that satisfactory of a performer either compared to store bought HP. He was loading that load years before commercial HP bullets were around. Casting was a lot cheaper than store bought and you could get a whole lot more variety of bullet shapes and weights.

Doug.38PR · December 25, 2005, 10:47 PM

There is the lineup of bullets in the handbook. You may not be able to read too much of the page depending on your eyesight but from left to right is the .357, 357 Keith hand load, .38 Keith hand load and the .38 Winchester Western 200 gr Super Police. The two middle ones look JUST LIKE the SWCLHP.

aspen1964 · December 25, 2005, 11:04 PM

from a 1953 and 1958 Sports Afield Gun Annual's table of factory-loaded handgun cartridges...muzzle 745 fps...247 ft lbs...slow round, but the weight of the bullet would punch a person pretty good....

ISP2605 · December 25, 2005, 11:07 PM

SA was probably getting those figures from the factory which used unvented barrels of 6"-8" length. I ran factory 200 gr over the chrony using a 4" Model 66 and was getting about 600 fps.

Jim Watson · December 25, 2005, 11:45 PM

"The two middle ones look JUST LIKE the SWCLHP."

The picture is captioned wrong. The left cartridge is probably a factory .357.
The other three are all .38 special, two different styles of SWC and the 200 gr RN. I think the second cartridge is a real Keith pattern SWC, notice the very wide front band. The third has a narrower band and would not meet Keith's specification.

Sir William · December 26, 2005, 03:48 AM

IIRC, a bigger issue was that ONLY the large S&W 38/44s on N frames, Colt Bisleys and New Services were capable of handling the Keith loads. Bisleys were often factory refitted to 357 Magnum. The long 6" and 7.5" barrels could deliver on the promise. The move was on to 4" barrels though for less weight on the Sam Browne and for less holes in the prowl car front seats. Why monkey with a 38 in 200 gr form that needed a 6" barrel? The 4" 357 Magnum could do the job with a 158 gr or 180 gr bullet. I believe that to be the reason the 38 Super Police didn't succeed.

Geoff Timm · December 26, 2005, 12:19 PM

In a related article:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=158879

I posted some scans from the book as well as quotes and comments.

Geoff
Who had a BB gun back then.

RON in PA · December 26, 2005, 01:22 PM

It seems to me that over the last 45 years we have learned a few things about handgun cartridges that Gaylord never imagined. I am leary of someone that claims that hitting someone anyplace in the body with a .45 will put him down.
Of historical interest, but at one time people believed the earth was flat.

Peter M. Eick · December 26, 2005, 05:55 PM

Sounds like someone is describing the old 38/44 Super Police round. That was a very hot loaded 200 grn near flat nosed lead bullet shot out of the big 38/44 N frames like the Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman. They were loaded to +P+ 38 pressure levels or just a tad below current 357 magnum pressure levels.

I have not had the pleasure of trying any over the chrono to see how they would do. My understanding is out of the 5" 38/44 Heavy Duty they did around 900 FPS but this is based upon memories of conversations and not hard data.

I have also heard that out of 2" snubbies they were in the 500 to 600 FPS range, but lord knows who would want to try a 38/44 round out of a detective special or chief's special. If the gun survived the encounter the recoil would have to be stout.

BlueTrain · December 27, 2005, 07:22 AM

I might add here that Chic Gaylord's book is the only book I have seen in the popular press, though now hard to find, that showed actual gunshot wounds. A dose of reality can be a little hard to take when you are speaking of shooting people, even though the wounds are cleaned up.

As far as the 38/44 and 200 grain bullets go, gunwriters of that period tended to recommend revolvers with at least a four-inch barrel and for more than one reason, the relevent one here being the velocity issue. Most of them also were inconsistent at times, just like I am, and generally illustrated their books and articles with 2-in barrel revolvers, including .22's, as well as others. Even Elmer Keith said there was no need for a holster for the j-frame because it was strictly a pocket gun. Yet in a very good article in Guns magazine from around 1960, he shows his own j-frame, complete with holster. Keith himself preferred a holstered N frame for concealed carry.

The British, when they went to the .38 revolver after WWI, used initially a 200 grain lead bullet, later changed to jacketed, in the .38 S&W chambering of the Webley and Enfield revolvers. They did not change over to 9mm until well after WWII.

ulmer · December 28, 2005, 06:50 AM

The book I read by Gaylord was on combat handgunning. Frankly I think too much emphasis is put on ammo improvement since his writing. Give me the 38/44 with the 200 grain round over the 357 today. Save wear and tear on your gun in the process. It is interesting how pat we can be over a time not really understood today. All the quoted ballistics notwithstanding.

December 25, 2005, 04:59 PM	#1
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	.38 Special 200 gr Winchester Western Super Police Load? I just got Chic Gaylord's Handgunners Guide (see amazon.com) as a stocking stuffer and he speaks about a 200 gr .38 special bullet called the Winchester Western Super Police Load. He considered it the best of all defense loads in the .38 special caliber. Is there any such load still around? The bullet looks almost like a big lightbulb sticking out of a lamp in the picture compared to the .38 hp and wadcutter and LRN rounds next to it. The heaviest bullet I can find is the 158 gr +P LWCHP

December 25, 2005, 09:56 PM	#10
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	The problem with the 200gr Super Police load is that, out of anything shorter than a 4"-5" barrel, its velocity is so low that it may bounce off things that you'd expect a handgun load to penetrate... __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

December 26, 2005, 01:22 PM	#22
RON in PA Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 1998 Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA Posts: 673	It seems to me that over the last 45 years we have learned a few things about handgun cartridges that Gaylord never imagined. I am leary of someone that claims that hitting someone anyplace in the body with a .45 will put him down. Of historical interest, but at one time people believed the earth was flat. __________________ I shoot, therefore I am.

December 26, 2005, 05:55 PM	#23
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	Sounds like someone is describing the old 38/44 Super Police round. That was a very hot loaded 200 grn near flat nosed lead bullet shot out of the big 38/44 N frames like the Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman. They were loaded to +P+ 38 pressure levels or just a tad below current 357 magnum pressure levels. I have not had the pleasure of trying any over the chrono to see how they would do. My understanding is out of the 5" 38/44 Heavy Duty they did around 900 FPS but this is based upon memories of conversations and not hard data. I have also heard that out of 2" snubbies they were in the 500 to 600 FPS range, but lord knows who would want to try a 38/44 round out of a detective special or chief's special. If the gun survived the encounter the recoil would have to be stout. __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

December 25, 2005, 05:20 PM	#2
Bulldozer Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 415	Dated information, and one of the few things Gaylord was wrong on.... __________________ There are three things in this life that make me smile ear to ear -- Mastiffs, Magnums, and Merlots. Don't try to take any of them from me.

December 25, 2005, 05:36 PM	#3
juliet charley Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 1999 Posts: 2,501	The 200-grain Super Police had a pretty good reputation among those who actually used it back then. The 158-grain +P LSWCHP is probably a better load, but it wasn't available back then. I not so sure Gaylord had it wrong as much as his advice was simply OBE'd.

December 25, 2005, 05:52 PM	#4
Sir William Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 3,261	Gaylord fixated on trivialities. He was never wrong, he just didn't try to reinvent the wheel. He designed excellent holsters but, he relied on others for their opinions/data that wasn't scientifically proved. The 38 in a 200 gr form really wasn't much. Modern JHPs and powders could make it a screamer though.

December 25, 2005, 08:24 PM	#6
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	I've run quite a few 200 gr yrs ago. The 200 gr load usually ran about 600 fps out of a 4" brl. Run them in a 2" and the speed dropped off to just above 500 fps. In its day, compared to the then standard police load of 158 gr LRN, the 200 was advertised as being better. Whether it really was or not is debatable. It probably gave more penetration altho penetration was not an issue with the 158 LRN.

December 25, 2005, 09:02 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I don't know what Chic Gaylord thought a "Keith load" was, other than a cast holowpoint, but ol' Elmer loaded it with 13.5 grains of 2400 in Special brass. That is good for over 1200 fps and is far ahead of any modern +P+ and beats many brands of magnums. Gaylord had to say about the hollowpoint: "It is so deadly that the majority of police departments frown upon its use. There is the possibility of legal repercussions in the event of a wounding or a fatality of an innocent bystander resulting from the use of these lethal projectiles." We now worry more about "overpenetration" if we DON'T use hollowpoints, but the terminal ballistics were less studied in 1960 when Handgunner's Guide came out. He might have been right, though. I worry more about where the misses go, not the shoot-throughs. A snubby with Super Police is not a real powerful weapon, but I found it no trouble to load a 200 gr bullet to 1100 fps in a 4" magnum. That would hit hard with the soft swaged factory bullet, and is a load Gaylord recommended.

December 25, 2005, 09:45 PM	#8
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	I'll have to go back and relook at "Keith load." In fact, I might just snap a shot of the page with my cell camera and post it here.

December 25, 2005, 09:49 PM	#9
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	What's usually referred to as the "Keith load" is loaded as Jim Watson described except it's not a HP. Keith ran hard cast SWC. His was a hunting load.

December 25, 2005, 10:09 PM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	ISP2605, before you pass along the idea that I make this stuff up, you might ought to refer to page 272 of 'Sixguns' where Elmer says: ".38/44 Special. Keith 160 grain hollow point or hollow base bullet sized .357 or .358. Hercules #2400 powder. Charge 13.5 grains with either of the Ideal catalog numbers of this bullet: #358429 or #358431, the bullets being crimped in the crimp groove. Remington .38/44 cases and primers."

December 25, 2005, 10:09 PM	#12
grimjaw Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 359	it may bounce off things that you'd expect a handgun load to penetrate So that's how they make rubber bullets! jmm

December 25, 2005, 10:15 PM	#13
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	"ISP2605, before you pass along the idea that I make this stuff up" Take a chill dude. You're reading stuff that I never said anything of the sort. Lighten up. I quite familar with the "Keith load". I was agreeing with you. What I was pointing out was what's usually referred to as the "Keith load" was with a hard cast, sharp shoulder SWC. Don't be so defensive. I was siding with you.

December 25, 2005, 10:37 PM	#14
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Your'e right. The difference is you were talking about what is "usually referred to as the Keith load" and I was going by what Elmer Keith actually said and did. I am sorry I did not pick up the fine difference.

December 25, 2005, 10:46 PM	#15
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	Not a problem. Casting a HP is a pain in the behind, particularly if one is trying for a really hard cast bullet. The HP plug just doesn't give a good of a HP cavity as commercial HP bullets. They just aren't all that satisfactory of a performer either compared to store bought HP. He was loading that load years before commercial HP bullets were around. Casting was a lot cheaper than store bought and you could get a whole lot more variety of bullet shapes and weights.

December 25, 2005, 10:47 PM	#16
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	There is the lineup of bullets in the handbook. You may not be able to read too much of the page depending on your eyesight but from left to right is the .357, 357 Keith hand load, .38 Keith hand load and the .38 Winchester Western 200 gr Super Police. The two middle ones look JUST LIKE the SWCLHP.

December 25, 2005, 11:04 PM	#17
aspen1964 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 1,030	from a 1953 and 1958 Sports Afield Gun Annual's table of factory-loaded handgun cartridges...muzzle 745 fps...247 ft lbs...slow round, but the weight of the bullet would punch a person pretty good....

December 25, 2005, 11:07 PM	#18
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	SA was probably getting those figures from the factory which used unvented barrels of 6"-8" length. I ran factory 200 gr over the chrony using a 4" Model 66 and was getting about 600 fps.

December 25, 2005, 11:45 PM	#19
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	"The two middle ones look JUST LIKE the SWCLHP." The picture is captioned wrong. The left cartridge is probably a factory .357. The other three are all .38 special, two different styles of SWC and the 200 gr RN. I think the second cartridge is a real Keith pattern SWC, notice the very wide front band. The third has a narrower band and would not meet Keith's specification.

December 26, 2005, 03:48 AM	#20
Sir William Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 3,261	IIRC, a bigger issue was that ONLY the large S&W 38/44s on N frames, Colt Bisleys and New Services were capable of handling the Keith loads. Bisleys were often factory refitted to 357 Magnum. The long 6" and 7.5" barrels could deliver on the promise. The move was on to 4" barrels though for less weight on the Sam Browne and for less holes in the prowl car front seats. Why monkey with a 38 in 200 gr form that needed a 6" barrel? The 4" 357 Magnum could do the job with a 158 gr or 180 gr bullet. I believe that to be the reason the 38 Super Police didn't succeed.

December 26, 2005, 12:19 PM	#21
Geoff Timm Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 472	In a related article: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=158879 I posted some scans from the book as well as quotes and comments. Geoff Who had a BB gun back then.

December 27, 2005, 07:22 AM	#24
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I might add here that Chic Gaylord's book is the only book I have seen in the popular press, though now hard to find, that showed actual gunshot wounds. A dose of reality can be a little hard to take when you are speaking of shooting people, even though the wounds are cleaned up. As far as the 38/44 and 200 grain bullets go, gunwriters of that period tended to recommend revolvers with at least a four-inch barrel and for more than one reason, the relevent one here being the velocity issue. Most of them also were inconsistent at times, just like I am, and generally illustrated their books and articles with 2-in barrel revolvers, including .22's, as well as others. Even Elmer Keith said there was no need for a holster for the j-frame because it was strictly a pocket gun. Yet in a very good article in Guns magazine from around 1960, he shows his own j-frame, complete with holster. Keith himself preferred a holstered N frame for concealed carry. The British, when they went to the .38 revolver after WWI, used initially a 200 grain lead bullet, later changed to jacketed, in the .38 S&W chambering of the Webley and Enfield revolvers. They did not change over to 9mm until well after WWII. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

December 28, 2005, 06:50 AM	#25
ulmer Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2004 Posts: 124	The book I read by Gaylord was on combat handgunning. Frankly I think too much emphasis is put on ammo improvement since his writing. Give me the 38/44 with the 200 grain round over the 357 today. Save wear and tear on your gun in the process. It is interesting how pat we can be over a time not really understood today. All the quoted ballistics notwithstanding.