Digital Reloading Scales DON'T change when you trickle

[Gadawg88]

http://www.cabelas.com/product/RCBS-...ale/741112.uts

This is the scale part of the Chargemaster 1500 dispenser combo. It will resolve .1 gn increments as you trickle.

[Vance]

I learned the hard way about cheap digital scales. I bought this scale
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/438...ProductFinding
And it was not consistant at all. Using the same check weight, I could weigh it, remove it and weigh it again and get a different reading each time the check weight was weighed and it would drift. Hornady replaced it and the replacement does the same thing.

I then bought this scale http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14...tal_Scale.aspx
I have not had one bit of trouble with it. It does not drift. It reads the check weight the same each time it's weighed, and I can trickle powder and it reads the change within a second. I am satisfied with it and I have a RCBS 505 scale to back it up.

[Bart B.]

I got flamed for asking about a similar thing on another thread. I know my progressive will spread 3/10th's with certain powders,

I've been flamed so much over the years about reloading stuff it's getting hard to laugh very long about it any more. I've often mentally thanked my Mom and Dad for giving me enough asbestos genes and DNA to form a mental barrier from such remarks from people with the adult form of SIDS, not the baby one. What thread was that on?

Two Dillon 1050's were used to uniform new .308 Win case mouths, prime cases then meter IMR4895 in for a new 30 caliber Sierra match bullet that was seated. Charge weight average was 45.3 grains with a 3/10ths grain spread and bullet runout about 3/1000ths. 20 rounds at random were tested in a rifle for accuracy at 600 yards; all went into 2.7 inches. That load shot about 1/2 MOA at 600 and about 3/4 MOA at 1000 across a couple dozen rifles from around the world in a big match that bullet was first used in.

I'm glad I don't have to worry about such a small variance as long as I'm above min, and below max. I guess for workups, it doesn't hurt to get the charge on the nose, but on my progressive, it's almost impossible to get less than a 3/10's variance with some powders.

If one checks several published load data for a given cartridge, bullet and powder, there's often a 2 to 3 grain spread in both minimum and maximum charge weights listed. Which one will you use as your maximum and minimum charge weights?

Some years ago, two Dillon 1050's were used to meter IMR4895 into new cases for one of Sierra's new 30 caliber match bullets. Charge weight averaged 45.3 grains but had a 3/10ths grain spread. Yet 20 rounds picked at random were tested at 600 yards for accuracy and put all the bullets into 2.7 inches. That load shot about 1/2 MOA at 600 yards across several rifles with different bore, groove and chamber dimensions.

[garyjackso]

I'm loading 200 rounds for an upcoming match, so they need to be spot-on. I timed myself....RCBS charge thrower and RCBS Beam Scale. 50 primed cases...to...50 completed rounds....throw, weigh EACH and trickle if needed, fill 50, then seat and box. Thirty five minutes. Beam wins.

[Kframe]

^^^

Posts like that are why TFL needs a "Like" button.

[imagunnut]

I've been flamed so much over the years about reloading stuff it's getting hard to laugh very long about it any more. I've often mentally thanked my Mom and Dad for giving me enough asbestos genes and DNA to form a mental barrier from such remarks from people with the adult form of SIDS, not the baby one. What thread was that on?

There are individuals that will read a post and try to help, constructively and with kindness. Then there are those that have nothing to do all day but read through posts to find a flaw just to prove their superiority.
It's very interesting human behavior, heck I'm guilty of it myself sometimes.
But for the most part, I try to help people no matter what it is. Forums, work, life. It's the price of learning and sometimes a kick in the butt is called for.

I load to "go bang". I like to dump mags, with as much control as my skills allow, that's what I really enjoy doing. Does that mean I'll be scaling every round? Apparently for some, I SHOULD be, let the flaming begin. It will be interesting to see who is offended by this statement lol!

If one checks several published load data for a given cartridge, bullet and powder, there's often a 2 to 3 grain spread in both minimum and maximum charge weights listed. Which one will you use as your maximum and minimum charge weights?

I'm using a powder (700x) that seems to meter poorly at times. I bought 2 kegs of this hedging the shortage. My Hornady does not even list it, Lyman calls for a 4.5 max charge. Hodgon site lists ONE loadout for 115gn fmj which is the same as Lyman. I handloaded 10 cartridges from min to max according to Lyman chart.
Turns out, I really love this powder LOL! Min loads cycle just fine and it burns clean. I set my meter at the upper end, .2 gns below max. Once I figured out how my machine likes to be "stroked", I really started getting consistent throws. With the .3 variance, that would put my minimum at 4gns, still well above published min of 3.1 gns. I can live with that.
This powder check system really works great. Even if the buzzer does not go off, the notch is a good indicator of how high or low the charge is. They claim it's only for "no charge or double charges" but it is way more useful than that.

Apologies to the OP< do not mean to hijack. I'll be sticking with my GemPro, using my beam for backup. Hope that helps

[Unclenick]

Most digitals have a feature that locks in a settled reading. It's not instant, though. The scale has to see the same reading long enough to decide that it has settled. Some scales, like the small battery powered one Enos used to sell, are programmable and you can lock out the auto-shutoff and, maybe, the settled reading lock-in. I don't know. You can often just lightly tap the edge of a weighing pan to unlock it and trickle. Lifting and returning the dispensing pan will obviously do it.

Watch out for metric conversions. Many scales have native metric resolution of 0.01 grams, which convert to just over 0.15 grains, so these scales can skip some digits in the tenths of a grain and need to be perturbed a little further to lose their lock.

[Fritz34]

I have a cheap set of Hornady digital scales. I think I paid about $32 at Sportsmans Warehouse. They weigh a tenth of a grain at a time when trickling powder.
http://www.hornady.com/store/GS-1500...ctronic-Scale/

[4runnerman]

garyjackso- With my Digital and a scoop I can do better than 2 a minute. I have a assortment of scoops and match them to what I am loading. One scoop a few spins on the trickler and on to the next. I just finished loading 100 rounds for a shoot tomorrow and my Daughter timed me. Right around 20 to 25 seconds per load. Now there are the oops and sun a gun ones I have too that throw it off, but when I get the system going it's over 2 a minute with ease. Although as you know-precision out weights speed always.

[Roadkill2228]

The cheap scale that I got with my hornady lock and load starter kit does not exhibit this disturbing behaviour you report. I do all my charges by hand.

[hooligan1]

I like working with my 5.0.5., its faster for me and plenty accurate enough for my needs than a digital whether I spend ten bucks or the 5000.00 on the one Bart B. posted the link to....Im a simple man, keepin it simple.

[Unclenick]

Sounds like Hornady was smart enough to have the lock-in feature not programmed into their scale. It's purpose is just so people don't see the scale jump back and forth between digits, which isn't useful for handloading.

[wogpotter]

My PACT doesn't lock, nor does it flicker.

[Tipsy Mcstagger]

My rcbs chargemaster scale is very sensitive and reacts quickly. You have to watch to not exhale towards it. It'll also tell you when it's stable. I've even pulled old loads and unplugged the machine without re-zeroing and it'll stay the same as what I put in it. Pan is always 154.3 or 154.4 grains no matter what.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

I treated my self about a dozen years ago to a Pact scale and infarred powder drop, and its been a very reliable combination. Didn't go for the battery model but the A/C job with the transformers. The accuracy of the drop is as claimed, the only thing I do extra is let both machines warm up for about 10 minutes before I begin dropping powder. Takes about 15 seconds to drop each charge.

With a decent magnetically damped scale and dribbler, I could probably load a bit faster but if I am in a hurry, I choose not to reload at all. That chore is my relaxing time.

[rogn]

From my experiences with only a few digitals, Ive come to the conclusion that they can only register a gradient. This is to say they can only read 10,1 gr when the 10.1 gr level is reached. They cannot read a half tenth like a balance beam, this you can't change unless you get a scale that reads to smaller increments; 0.0n gr My latest is a Dillon that has served me well, although its like a bird dog or retriever that you have to learn to read some idiosyncracies.. I find it works flawlesly if you dump 98% of the charge and add a grain at a time until it "breaks" over into the next tenth. This break will be accurate and consistent nearly all the time. If it misbehaves, its because the A/C or heat is on. Waiting forever, as stated gets it confused, so a fast reboot is needed, lift the pan and reweigh. I always check the tare weight when lifting the pan. If its changed, Illre zero. I use the same pan for it as the balance beam, and just drop the pan on the beam every so often to confirm.

[schmellba99]

Even on a beam, reading to .05 grain is a guess at best. And, frankly, if you are getting that anal about your loads you are burning a lot of calories for almost no measurable gain. But, if that floats your boat - have at it.

My Chargemaster works wonderfully and it is one of the single best reloading tools I've ever bought. Sometimes I wish it would dispense faster, but I easily live with the speed and accuracy.

[4runnerman]

I have never used a beam scale. From the day I got my first press I got a digital scale to go with it. I set the beam up once or twice just to give it a chance, My take- Way to micky mouse, slow, cumbersome to mess with. My loads time and time again with a digital scale will have a deviation of 10 FPS or less , consistantly. So good or bad that level of error is more than good enough for me. The digital is just way to easy to use. I will say nothing against beam as the Micky mouse,slow and cumbersome comes from a guy ( Me) that has spent maybe 20 minutes working with one. Im sure if I had to use it in time it would become easier, but the question still would be-Why waste my time on it. I have powder scoups for every load. One scoop and trickle and I am done.
Now if someone can tell me a beam scale will get me better then the deviation I am getting now I will give it another shot. To me it's like a dig caliper as compared to a manual caliper. They both work great, but digital for me.

[RC20]

My cheap Frankfurth scale works just fine.

I charge a bit low, trickle in till its a tenth plus or minus (thank you Bart B) and good to go.

Sometimes its a bit slow to register but I know what it takes for a given increase and just waist a second. No big deal.

I can powder far faster than I can with the beam.

As noted above, I check the pan weight (tare) each time its removed and if it shifts off its calibrated weight, I re-tare (zero) and good to go.

Understand how it works and how to work with it and they are fine. Fight em and you are better off with a beam.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by wogpotter

My PACT doesn't lock, nor does it flicker.

You got a good one. I didn't. Had drift issues and ultimately had to keep it temperature controlled by parking it on a granite surface plate and interference-free by running it through a filtered AC supply.

This has been a past pattern with a lot of digital scales; you might get a good one or not. But my PACT is pretty old at this point and the technology keeps improving. I got a battery operated CED Pocket Scale at one point, which was not cheap, but has proper four point pan support for zero weight location sensitivity. That little battery-operated tool is virtually perfectly repeatable and dead steady. But the company I bought it from, RSI, stopped carrying them because of complaints about some units being far less well-behaved than mine. My Acculab scale also has digits move a little on most days, but since it's got an extra decimal place of resolution, that doesn't matter much. Once you've turned it on, it keeps power supplied to its strain gauge bridge as long as power is uninterrupted. This is in order not to require warming up.

[Merad]

I don't really get the complaints in this thread... I have a "cheap" Frankford Arsenal digital scale and I've never had a problem trickling powder into it. Of course the scale (most likely) won't change when you add a flake or two of powder, because for most of our powders a single flake weighs almost nothing.

I've never specifically made a digital scale, but I've worked with similar electronics, so I can make an educated guess about how they work. There are 3 limiting factors that should effect the accuracy of a digital scale:

1. The accuracy of the sensor. Typically a sensor works by varying an output voltage. For a weight sensor this would mean for example that 0V output is no load and 5V is max load. The sensor will also have an error factor. For example, we would expect a 20% load to output 1V, but in reality it is going to vary between something like .975V and 1.025V.
2. The resolution of the analog to digital convertor used. 10 bit and 12 bit resolution is common in the microcontrollers I've used, but an application like a scale might use higher resolution like 16 bit. If we assume that we have a 12 bit ADC that means that we can read 4096 distinct values from the sensor. So if the sensor reads between 0 and 250 grains (IIRC this is the range for my scale) then we are measuring in increments of 0.061 grains.
3. Deciding how to display the data. Our sensor and ADC are still more accurate than our display, which is limited to a precision of 0.1 grain. As weight is added the first 5 readings we get from the ADC will be 0 gr, 0.061 gr, 0.122 gr, 0.183 gr, 0.244 gr. But how do those map to display? Presumably the system does normal rounding, so a value greater than 0.05 gr and less than 0.15 gr will display 0.1 gr, and > 0.15, < 0.25 will display 0.2. But of course the programmers could have done something totally different or off the wall.

There are other questions as well, such as how stable the sensor's output is, how often you should poll it for new readings, the "native" units of the sensor (I imagine most off the shelf parts actually measure grams), and how the sensor is affected by temp/humidity.

Anyway, I haven't seen any evidence that my digital scale isn't functioning properly or in a way I would expect. And yes, digital scales are "imperfect" unless you pay out the behind for a very, very high end model. Good eyesight and a good beam scale will give you "better" measurements, if that's what you're interested in. The thing is, the digital scale is plenty good enough for everything I do.

[wogpotter]

interference-free by running it through a filtered AC supply.

I guess we didn't have the same model?
Mine runs on a 9v Radio battery, no line interference at all!

[wachtelhund1]

I use a powder trickler with a Sartorius AY-123 milligram digital scale. Even with fine powder like CFE 223 or Win 748 it changes with one or two granules of powder.

[imagunnut]

I use a powder trickler with a Sartorius AY-123 milligram digital scale. Even with fine powder like CFE 223 or Win 748 it changes with one or two granules of powder.

This model is discontinued by manufacturer, still available on Amazon for $305, no warranty or parts available. Replacement model, (Practum 213-1S) is a cool $1,040!

Here's a writeup on 3 scales:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...rtorius-gd503/

Follow the link to the GD503. This will read out kernel by kernel for $900, powered trickler $70.

[skizzums]

I did the same thing with a cheap scale the other night. 100 rounds of 54r, wanted them dead-on. I just used a lee PPM, and zero-ed the pan from the beam scale. I set the PPM, would do my pour into the pan, weigh it, if it wasn't 45.8gr, then I would just dump the pan and try again. I would say one in four had to be dumped and re-poured because it's weight was of by .1-.2 gr. it didn't seem overly difficult, not sure what your trying to do differently.