Hard lead .38s?

[ditchbanker]

Took a few years away from reloading until I bought an sp101 in .357 and realized how much factory .38s are running. Got back into it and started with some magtech lrn 158 grn rounds because they were cheap. Shot about 60 of them over 4.2 grains of Unique yesterday and got some excessive leading in my barrel. I know these bullets were soft as I've had a really hard time getting them to load into the cases without swaging off a portion of the bullet or using MAJOR flaring on the case.

I'd like to stick to lead bullets as I don't plan on loading any .357s too hot and they seem to offer more range on reloading in my speer manual than copper rounds. What rounds, preferably in 158 grns, would you suggest to avoid this? My reloads are just for practice, with factory rounds being used for self defense, so I'm looking for an economy option.

Thanks for all advice.

[spacecoast]

I shot 50 rounds of 158 grn. reloads over 4.3 gr. of Unique in my .38 special K-frame snub yesterday and didn't have any leading issues. I don't have immediate access to my reloading data, but I believe this is a mid-range load, as it has quite a bit more recoil than 148 gr. wadcutters (which don't lead either).

Any idea of the hardness factor of the bullets you are using? According to http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php, assuming a CUP of about 13-14,000 (typical for .38 special), the optimal hardness would be in the neighborhood of 12, which is a pretty soft bullet. Maybe yours are harder than you think and they're not expanding to fit the bore.

[zxcvbob]

I've had good luck with the 158 grain SWC's and the 148 grain DEWC's from mastercastbullets.com (but I've recently starting casting my own bullets for .38 Special and using Mastercast's for .357 Magnum) and the price certainly is right. Delivery is usually not as quick as Missouri Bullets though, but it's not bad -- depends on what Mike has in stock already and what he's casting that week.

Where are you getting the leading, just the first inch of the barrel, or the whole barrel, or just the muzzle end?

[Rangefinder]

My suggestion is to start casting your own rather than buying 'manufactured' lead bullets. You have much more room for adjustment and tuning that way. Contrary to popular belief, it's not a huge investment to get started in. Once you have the basic set-up (melting furnace or mini camp stove w/ pot and ladle, mold, sizing die) your lead bullets come down to your cost for lead---which for me is free.
WARNING: Hand casting is ADDICTIVE! But it sure is fun.

[ditchbanker]

Leading is in the first inch of the barrel. Does that mean anything in particular?

Reference the link provided on hardness, I can now say that I am more informed than I was before. Also more confused on how to fix the problem. I'm very interested in his bullets as the prices are very good. Enough that it shows that I could get a discount from him but don't want to because I think I'd feel guilty. How long from time of order is it taking you to get your ammo?

Reference the mastercast bullets, what quantity are they sold in? The pricing just says per "m" and a quick glance around the site doesn't specify what M is.

[mikejonestkd]

" M " designates per 1000.

Two other excellent bullet companies for 38 special are :

Master Cast : www.mastercast.net and

Oregon Trail: http://www.laser-cast.com/

I have never had leading issues with either of these two companies, and the master cast ones are quite economical and high quality too..

I just placed an order from Mastercast.net friday morning and it is arriving today priority mail ( PA to NY ) YMMV...

[zippy13]

+ 1 to Rangefinder's suggestion to get into home casting. Typically, leading occurs when you try to drive a cast bullet too fast for its alloy. There are references available that recommend maximum velocity based on bullet hardness. If you keep your velocities within the recommended limits, you'll reduce leading. Of course, there's another option: Use gas checks and don't worry about your alloy hardness.

[WESHOOT2]

I am now buying my lead bullets from Penn.

[ditchbanker]

Great thanks for the companies suggested. It's clear that there are some spectacular deals compared to what's available locally.

I've looked briefly into casting, but it seems like the initial investment will be pretty high, along with time. With my other hobbies and 19 month old son, the time is fairly tough to come by. I usually get my reloading done during his naps on my days off. I don't think I could get much casting in on that schedule.

Zippy, what you're saying about leading has always been my understanding, too. However, it isn't inline with the info in the link posted by spacecoast. Anyone else that cares to weigh in on this?

[ditchbanker]

Also, thanks for the info on Laser-Cast bullets. When I was reloading previously I used their bullets in .45 colt and .45 acp and never had any leading. Alas, my old box of .45 swc shows a price under $30 for 500 and .38 rounds are now almost $60 locally. If only I'd known at the time.

Also, my .45s with laser cast didn't show any leading at moderate velocities when I was loading before and it's always been my understanding that LC bullets were pretty hard, which furthered my belief that hard bullets lead less.

[Unclenick]

Ditchbanker,

Having metal fouling in the first inch or so is common. In fact, the most copper fouling is usually in the first inch or so of a rifle barrel, too. It's because that's where the bullet is when the pressure is highest, and the pressure determines how hard the bullet is swelled out against the bore, so friction is greatest there.

That said, revolvers can be problematic with regard to leading in other ways. You need three conditions in a revolver for it to shoot relatively free of leading. One is that there be no constrictions in the barrel. Another is that the chamber throats be at least half a thousandth to two thousandths larger than the barrel groove diameter. The last is that the cylinder timing be good and align the chambers centered behind the barrel.

As to the constriction, it is common for there to be one where the barrel screws into the frame. A constriction makes the bullet too small for the rest of the bore and gas cutting results that sprays lead on the bore until the bullet travels far enough to bump back up again. Thus, a constriction at the barrel threads causes leading just beyond the forcing cone. A constriction at the muzzle has no adverse impact at all, as the bullet is no longer in the bore when it passes through there. Constrictions can also occur where sight dovetails have been cut, though those are more common on rifles, especially lever action and muzzle loaders.

You have to slug the barrel with a pure lead slug to find out if your gun has the a constriction. Pure lead is almost totally inelastic, where casting alloys are not, and that's critical to correctly feeling irregularities in the bore diameter accurately. Slugging supplies and instructions are available from Beartooth Bullets, LBT, Meister Bullets, and NECO. If you have the constriction, you need to lap it out, either by hand lapping or, more easily, by firelapping. Beartooth and LBT and NECO have lapping supplies.

The cylinder throats have to be larger than you barrel groove diameter so that they don't undersize the bullet before it gets into the barrel, acting like built-in constrictions. Opening chamber throats to SAAMI maximum is a common first step by revolver accuracy smiths. You can get yours reamed by Cylindersmith, but you do have to remove the cylinder yourself and send it to them. If you are going to firelap a constriction out, do that before getting reaming done. The firelapping may open the throats enough by itself in the process of clearing the constriction. You don't want to add that lapping to the reaming.

The best accuracy seems to come if the bullets are the same size as the throat or 0.001" bigger. If your barrel groove diameter is actually 0.357", having 0.358" throats and shooting bullets 0.358" to 0.359" will give best accuracy. Many revolvers prefer 0.002" over groove diameter for lead and cast bullets, but not many makers supply the option to 0.002" over groove diameter. Beartooth Bullets is one.

Cylinder timing needs a gunsmith to adjust it. If you return the gun to Ruger, their shop can correct a timing issue. If you complain about accuracy they may ream the cylinder throats, too. They did that for a friend of mine who's Redhawk didn't group well. That was with jacketed bullets and it fixed the problem.

For shearing lead in reloading, that usually happens because the seater ram doesn't center the bullet nose well so it enters the case at a slight tilt. You can often avoid that by using a Lyman M type expander for your cases. Instead of the usual simple flare, it puts a small step in the case so you can set the bullet into that and have it aligned with the case before the seater touches it. Redding and, I think, Hornady now use that expander form, too. Others may that I am not aware of.

[zippy13]

Ditchbanker, I re-read Missouri Bullet Company's Hardness-Optimized Bullets and I'm not totally convinced. The premise may be valid, pressure may well be more critical than velocity. MBC's recommendations may be based on an oversimplification of the obturation process.

The formula provided may be appropriate for the hand-loader, but I'm skeptical there's a linear relationship that's as simple as: optimum pressure (in CUP) is 1280 times bullet's BHN. Why was the divisor express as a product of two numbers? I suspect the .90 (and/or the 1422) is a variable that has been assumed to be constant. What about other variables? Had a derivation of the equation been provided, there would be no questions.

[Unclenick]

Take a look at Richard Lee's write up of this in the second edition of Modern Reloading (I don't recall the first edition having it). He is basically trying to keep pressure below the yield of the bullet alloy (the pressure that causes permanent deformation). This makes his bullet alloy requirement harder than many of us have used in the past, but he has an example of a group opening up just as the load passes that threshold. Interesting idea.

BTW, that assumes the bullet starts out larger than groove diameter so you don't need pressure to bump it up any further for it to obturate (seal off) the bore. Alloys harder than pure lead also have some measure of elasticity and spring out against the bore.

[wncchester]

I've been shooting my own cast bullets, rifle and handgun, from day one in the mid 60s. Put a few pounds of lead down range that way.

Part of what I've learned is that a properly hard cast alloy permits handgun loads as hot as they can safely be fired and with little to no leading in a smooth barrel IF they are properly lubed. Best bullet lube I've seen remains the old NRA formula of 50:50 Alox/beeswax.

For my heavy loads, slugging the bore quickly proved almost pointless. Even with a very hard alloy, cast stuff is still easily soft enough to slug up to fit even if they start out a little small. That does NOT apply to slower loads tho, a tight bore fit is demanded for them because they won't slug up. Even a 'hot' .38 Special or .44 Special is quite slow/mild so diameter matters.

I started with gas check bullets for my .357/.44 mag loads but found checks really didn't make much difference, even hot handgun loads are quite mild compaired to modest rifle loads. I no longer use GC bullets with handguns but I sure do with rifle loads doing much over 1,500 fps. Squirrel hunting with a .243 using 85 gr gas check bullets leaving at about 1,900 fps is a hoot.

Maybe store bought lead bullets are good but I wouldn't know, never fired any!

[zippy13]

Unclenick, keeping the stress on the bullet base below its elastic yield seems a prudent approach. It's understandable that plastic deformation, or more likely failure, of the material at the base would increase grouping. Obviously, to determine the optimum propellant pressure for a specific bullet involves much more than simply applying a constant to the bullet's BHN as the MBC report suggests.

I suspect someone at MBC may have confused the importance of smooth bore obturation in muskets with cast bullet performance in rifled barrels. However, even if their premise is shaky, pragmatically their hardness to performance recommendations may be spot-on.

[spacecoast]

This thread prompted me to ask my local bullet manufacturer what hardness their bullets are and whether they make different calibers out of of different lead blends. Turns out they do not, all their bullets measure 8-10 on the "Saeco" scale, which means they are likely made from wheel weights, which are relatively hard. Here are the Saeco and ( Brinell ) scales compared:

From http://www.redding-reloading.com/ind...ardness-tester

Relative Hardness - SAECO ( Brinell )
(Approx.)
Pure lead . . . . . . . . . . . 0-1 ( 5 )
1:20 tin: lead . . . . . . . . 6-7 ( 10 )
5:5:90 tin: antimony: lead . . . . . 7-8 ( 15 )
2:6:92 (taracorp) . . . . . 8-9 ( 16-17 )
(magnum alloy)
5:10:85 (linotype) . . . . 9-10 ( 22 )

The vernier scale is calibrated in arbitrary units from 0 for pure lead up to a SAECO hardness of 10. We have found that a SAECO hardness of at least 6 is required for medium velocities in handguns and a SAECO hardness of over 8 for Magnum handgun and gas check rifle bullets. As a point of reference, wheelweights vary in composition and hardness but usually test between 7 and 9, while linotype registers approx. 10.

Hardness testers are available from a variety of sources -

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=193445


More interesting reading -

http://www.realguns.com/archives/118.htm
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...ness/index.asp
http://shootersforum.com/showpost.ht...3&postcount=11
http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetr...g_products.htm

[ditchbanker]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed. I'm afraid that I'm getting to that level of knowledge where I'm just becoming aware of how little I know.

I've got some experimentation to do on my own (all within published numbers) and have even made some curious inquiries on the availability of lead in my area.

So, thanks again for leading so dramatically to my further confusion