357 mag vs 44 mag for hunting - Page 4

Guv · November 15, 2014, 08:29 AM

Shoot a 4" M29 and a 4" M19 with full power factory ammo. The 44 will seem like a vicious beast, even allowing for the heavier gun, not even close.

Real Gun · November 15, 2014, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Shoot a 4" M29 and a 4" M19 with full power factory ammo. The 44 will seem like a vicious beast, even allowing for the heavier gun, not even close.

I like my 44 Magnums in 5-6" barrels. For one thing, that helps with powder burn and optimal performance of the load. It surely reduces muzzle flip and wrist punishment.

The 357 is typically a smaller gun, not retaining its original N-frame identity. On that basis it is difficult to project a comparison of how the guns shoot.

I don't believe the 44 Magnum should be expected to be anything but ghastly in a 4" barrel. The 357, on the other hand, seems manageable at 4". The M19 though is a K frame, and it would be a stretch to suppose that is where the 357 even approaches being user friendly. It does what it does, but it will never be the fun one can have with a full sized (5-6 inch barrel N-frame) 44 magnum...not to me anyway.

Guv · November 15, 2014, 10:24 AM

Substitute 6" for both, still a big difference, to me anyway. And I still have yet to understand how a 357 is sharp while a 44 is more of a hard or strong push. Unless we are talking about extremes as far as gun weights I have to disagree with these descriptions in regards to their respective recoils.

458winshooter · November 15, 2014, 10:31 AM

First yes the 44 is more powerful and will on paper do a better job.The 357 is up to the task and as already said most people can shoot it more accurately.The idea that it is not makes no sense.Looking back at history 140 years ago the 44-40 was king of the deer rifles so much so that its reputation is that it has taken more deer than anything but the 30-30.That load was a 200-205 gr bullet over 40 grs of black powder at 1190 fps.A 357 will do better than that even from a revolver.
Deer haven't gotten smarter or are armor plated.They are forced like any other creature to adapt to survive so they are living where you ain't.They are no more difficult to kill than they use to be just harder to find.

Guv · November 15, 2014, 10:37 AM

I would argue a vast majority of them have become more cautious do to hunting pressure and habitats, than 140 years ago.

22-rimfire · November 15, 2014, 10:54 AM

Quote:

The reason I use a larger caliber is to get more range, not a bigger kill zone.

Yep. Me too.

The "margin of error" thing is a misnomer really. I use the term, but for me it applies more to taking a shot at angles more acute than broadside. I don't think I've ever thought.... I'll shoot it in the butt and the bullet will penetrate to the heart-lung area. It also applies to how quickly and with how much certainty (for me) the animal will go down. They still may run a bit even with a good hit. But there is a huge difference between running hundreds of yards and running 30 yds.

The 357 works with reasonable bullet choice and good markmanship. A bad hit is a bad hit regardless of caliber. But I would still suggest that you choose a revolver with something with a "4" in the name (no not 40 S&W and I wouldn't choose 45 ACP either.).

I prefer to shoot 44 mags from 6" revolvers. I have done it and I certainly do shoot 41 mags from a 4" revolver. But I would not be hunting deer with a 4" revolver unless it is a backup or for shots of opportunity at close range. You really don't need a backup unless you're in big bear country.

**44 AMP** · November 15, 2014, 11:48 AM

Quote:

The 357 is typically a smaller gun, not retaining its original N-frame identity. On that basis it is difficult to project a comparison of how the guns shoot.

I will admit that I am not typical. I do agree that comparing the recoil of a .357 in a smaller lighter gun, to a .44 Mag is not appropriate.

I'm comparing them in essentially similar or exactly identical guns, other than the caliber.

S&W M29 6.5" .44Magnum
S&W M28 6" .357 Magnum
(essentially similar, nearly identical)

Desert Eagle .44 Magnum
Desert Eagle .357 Magnum
(exactly identical, other than caliber)

T/C Contender 10" .44 Magnum
T/C Contender 10" .357 Magnum
(exactly identical, other than caliber)

Marlin 1894 carbine .44 Magnum
Marlin 1894 carbine .357 Magnum
(essentially similar, nearly identical)

Out of my personal collection, these are the guns where I can come closest to shoot both out of the "same" gun.

In all these examples, I find the recoil of the .44 to be significantly and noticeably greater then the .357. Where the .357 takes first place (fired from handguns) is the sound of the report. The combination of the velocity and the bore size of the .357 gives it a distinctive sharp "crack" that you don't notice with the .44. The .44 has the same supersonic "crack" but its more hidden in the "boom" of the larger bore's muzzle blast.

Neither should ever be fired without hearing protection, save in a life threatening emergency. Over the years, both by my design, and my ignorance, I have been exposed to both, unprotected, at close range, while the .44 is painfully loud, it doesn't have the same sharp "ice pick in the ear" feel the .357 does.

Polglock · November 17, 2014, 10:50 AM

.357 works. .44 mag works better. I've killed the same amount of deer with both calibers. .44 mag took only one shot a piece. With .357 I have had to dump a whole cylinder into a deer. And they where all well placed. Either will work but I'm personally more confident with my 629. I just killed two doe with two rounds Saturday. And I feel .44 mag does not recoil any worse than .357. .44 pushes and .357 snaps up to me. Either way have fun, hunting with an open sight revolver is the most rewarding way to hunt deer for me .

Noreaster · November 18, 2014, 04:33 AM

My only deer experience with the 357 has been not gone well using 140 grain load at about 1350 FPS, I'd like to hear how heavier bullets have done for those with experience.

ptcb · January 20, 2015, 08:32 PM

I need help.. I want to buy another rifle for my 17 yr old daughter. For deer hunting. Recoil opinions please. Which will be better for her. She is 5'7 118 pounds... 44 mag or 45-70

Guv · January 20, 2015, 08:44 PM

The 44magnum out of say a 1894 Marlin is not bad at all, a 1895 Marlin shooting the standard 405 load is pretty easy shooting also.

Snyper · January 20, 2015, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Which will be better for her.

The 44 Mag is much better
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

**44 AMP** · January 21, 2015, 12:31 AM

If, for some reason you are limited to those two choices, most would automatically say .44 mag, for a number of good reasons. BUT...

Recoil is a very subjective thing, and simply looking at the ft/lb energy of the round (and for any kind of valid comparison, it has to be in equal weight rifles).

Besides the actual energy of the recoil, other important factors are how the gun is mounted (shooting form and style) and how well the stock fits the shooter.

A gun with lighter recoil energy and a poor shooter to stock fit, can actually feel like it kicks worse than one with more recoil energy and a proper stock design and fit.

Overall total weight of the gun makes a difference. And the skill level/determination of the shooter.

TO ME, a .44 mag carbine like the Marlin feels about like a .30-30 when shooting 240gr "standard" magnum ammo. Move up to the 265gr and a stiff load, and it kicks significantly more. Some might find it vicious. Others would just consider it a good jolt. Everyone's different.

regular .45-70 405gr "standard" velocity (black powder speeds) in a 7-8lb rifle isn't too bad, a good shove, not a sharp kick. Same ammo in a 5.5lb carbine isn't ...comfortable. And, likewise, higher speeds and/or heavier bullets can turn the good shove into a hard sharp jolt, something that takes time and desire to master.

Rifle fit is critical. What is she comfortable shooting now? That would be a good place to start.

And, just curious, why not a .243 /6mm /.257 / .260 or 6.5x55 Swede? Those and several others I didn't mention are excellent deer rounds, have low levels of recoil, and are much flatter shooting than the .44 or .45-70.

Guv · January 21, 2015, 07:04 AM

The 45-70 405 is the only rifle load I can remember hearing the shmaack when it hit the paper at 100yds. The sound from a 45-70 405 is also pretty mild, to me anyway. Muzzle blast from 243/6mm and such can confuse a beginning shooter into thinking it has more recoil than a lower velocity larger caliber. My wives cousin swore his dad's old 35 Rem pump action kicked less than his newer 6mm bolt gun, there was no convincing him otherwise. I'm pretty sure the difference in muzzle blast contributed to this observation. I also don't think they were using the best hearing protection.

Isaiah · January 21, 2015, 07:55 AM

I'd say 44 a little more power to get the job done

Real Gun · January 21, 2015, 08:32 AM

Quote:

And, just curious, why not a .243 /6mm /.257 / .260 or 6.5x55 Swede? Those and several others I didn't mention are excellent deer rounds, have low levels of recoil, and are much flatter shooting than the .44 or .45-70.

I took it that it needed to be a lever action. I believe she might find my Marlin 44 Mag to her liking, but I might start her with a padded stock sleeve, since there is only one chance to make a good first impression.

TimSr · January 21, 2015, 09:22 AM

PTCB,

I see you are in Ohio, so I'm guessing you are looking for a gun to fit the newly legal "pistol caliber rifle" in place of shotgun slugs with less recoil for your daughter. This thread is a PISTOL comparison of the two rounds. Most people would agree that the .357 rifle which has far greater velocity than a pistol makes a decent deer gun, with far less limitations. If recoil is a concern, that would be the way to go.

Of the two you mentioned, .44 mag is the way to go, far cheaper to shoot, and more factory ammo that is easier to find. Knwoing what you woud be using it for, .454 Casull would proabbly be a better choice than 45-70, as you have teh option of mild 45lc loads, to heavy, 44mag equiv 45lc loads, to full power 454 casull loads.

TimSr · January 21, 2015, 09:24 AM

44 AMP, Ohio does not allow rifles for deer, and last year enacted a "pistol caliber rifle" provision, though it includes staright wall cartridge rifles. Before that we were limited to shotgun slugs, muzzleloaders, and pistols.

22-rimfire · January 21, 2015, 01:04 PM

I would choose the 44 mag myself. Correct about the straight walled cartridge change last year in Ohio.

**44 AMP** · January 21, 2015, 01:27 PM

Thank you for the clarification TimSr. That explains it quite well.

The .44 Mag would be a good choice, and while I have heard of issues with the new guns (made since Marlin was acquired by Remington), I can tell you from experience that the older guns are pretty good.

One big advantage to the .44 Mag is the range of loads available without handloading. .44 Specials, fired from the carbine have almost no recoil, and a very mild report, which might be a good thing for practice.

Snyper · January 21, 2015, 05:15 PM

Quote:

I took it that it needed to be a lever action. I believe she might find my Marlin 44 Mag to her liking, but I might start her with a padded stock sleeve, since there is only one chance to make a good first impression.

Start with 44 Spcl loads and leave off the slip on pad, because it's going to make the gun too long to fit

Have her shoot some rounds standing before putting her on a bench where the recoil will be more noticeable

NoSecondBest · January 21, 2015, 05:59 PM

I've shot, and killed, over fifty deer with the 357mag. I've also killed a few with the 44mag, 30-30 in a TC, and 7tcu in a TC. I can tell you for a fact that the 357mag is more than adequate for taking deer sized animals. I'm not saying it's better than the 44mag, but it will easily kill any deer hit in the vitals. The only deer I didn't recover with a handgun was shot with the 44mag and it was a bad hit. I just didn't make a good shot. Muzzle energy does not kill deer with a handgun. In fact, it doesn't even kill deer with a rifle. Anyone who tells you they shot a deer multiple times with the 357mag and didn't get it either missed or never put one in the vitals.

SBH · January 22, 2015, 07:53 AM

I have not used a .357 on game animals but I have used the 44 on Mule Deer. I just like the 44 , don't know much about the .357.

Real Gun · January 22, 2015, 11:22 AM

If you start her with 44 S&W Special, she will feel it's okay to expect that. 44 Magnum ammo is easier to source and what is really needed for hunting.

The padded sleeve on my 357 Uberti doesn't add enough length to be even close to a deal breaker.

Snyper · January 22, 2015, 05:07 PM

Quote:

If you start her with 44 S&W Special, she will feel it's okay to expect that. 44 Magnum ammo is easier to source and what is really needed for hunting.

The 44 Spcl would just be used to introduce her to shooting the rifle, not for the actual hunt

It's a way of starting gradually, rather than handing her a full powered load for her first shot

November 15, 2014, 10:31 AM	#79
458winshooter Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Transplanted to Ridgeland,SC Posts: 606	357 vs 44 First yes the 44 is more powerful and will on paper do a better job.The 357 is up to the task and as already said most people can shoot it more accurately.The idea that it is not makes no sense.Looking back at history 140 years ago the 44-40 was king of the deer rifles so much so that its reputation is that it has taken more deer than anything but the 30-30.That load was a 200-205 gr bullet over 40 grs of black powder at 1190 fps.A 357 will do better than that even from a revolver. Deer haven't gotten smarter or are armor plated.They are forced like any other creature to adapt to survive so they are living where you ain't.They are no more difficult to kill than they use to be just harder to find.

January 20, 2015, 08:32 PM	#85
ptcb Member Join Date: May 23, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 19	Need help 44 mag or 45-75 gov I need help.. I want to buy another rifle for my 17 yr old daughter. For deer hunting. Recoil opinions please. Which will be better for her. She is 5'7 118 pounds... 44 mag or 45-70 __________________ Best regards, always be safe. Be ever so Vigilant God-Guns and Guts "Keep America Free"

January 21, 2015, 12:31 AM	#88
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	If, for some reason you are limited to those two choices, most would automatically say .44 mag, for a number of good reasons. BUT... Recoil is a very subjective thing, and simply looking at the ft/lb energy of the round (and for any kind of valid comparison, it has to be in equal weight rifles). Besides the actual energy of the recoil, other important factors are how the gun is mounted (shooting form and style) and how well the stock fits the shooter. A gun with lighter recoil energy and a poor shooter to stock fit, can actually feel like it kicks worse than one with more recoil energy and a proper stock design and fit. Overall total weight of the gun makes a difference. And the skill level/determination of the shooter. TO ME, a .44 mag carbine like the Marlin feels about like a .30-30 when shooting 240gr "standard" magnum ammo. Move up to the 265gr and a stiff load, and it kicks significantly more. Some might find it vicious. Others would just consider it a good jolt. Everyone's different. regular .45-70 405gr "standard" velocity (black powder speeds) in a 7-8lb rifle isn't too bad, a good shove, not a sharp kick. Same ammo in a 5.5lb carbine isn't ...comfortable. And, likewise, higher speeds and/or heavier bullets can turn the good shove into a hard sharp jolt, something that takes time and desire to master. Rifle fit is critical. What is she comfortable shooting now? That would be a good place to start. And, just curious, why not a .243 /6mm /.257 / .260 or 6.5x55 Swede? Those and several others I didn't mention are excellent deer rounds, have low levels of recoil, and are much flatter shooting than the .44 or .45-70. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 21, 2015, 01:27 PM	#95
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	Thank you for the clarification TimSr. That explains it quite well. The .44 Mag would be a good choice, and while I have heard of issues with the new guns (made since Marlin was acquired by Remington), I can tell you from experience that the older guns are pretty good. One big advantage to the .44 Mag is the range of loads available without handloading. .44 Specials, fired from the carbine have almost no recoil, and a very mild report, which might be a good thing for practice. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 15, 2014, 08:29 AM	#76
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	Shoot a 4" M29 and a 4" M19 with full power factory ammo. The 44 will seem like a vicious beast, even allowing for the heavier gun, not even close.

November 15, 2014, 10:24 AM	#78
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	Substitute 6" for both, still a big difference, to me anyway. And I still have yet to understand how a 357 is sharp while a 44 is more of a hard or strong push. Unless we are talking about extremes as far as gun weights I have to disagree with these descriptions in regards to their respective recoils.

November 15, 2014, 10:37 AM	#80
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	I would argue a vast majority of them have become more cautious do to hunting pressure and habitats, than 140 years ago.

November 17, 2014, 10:50 AM	#83
Polglock Member Join Date: August 26, 2011 Posts: 83	.357 works. .44 mag works better. I've killed the same amount of deer with both calibers. .44 mag took only one shot a piece. With .357 I have had to dump a whole cylinder into a deer. And they where all well placed. Either will work but I'm personally more confident with my 629. I just killed two doe with two rounds Saturday. And I feel .44 mag does not recoil any worse than .357. .44 pushes and .357 snaps up to me. Either way have fun, hunting with an open sight revolver is the most rewarding way to hunt deer for me .

November 18, 2014, 04:33 AM	#84
Noreaster Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: New England Posts: 1,449	My only deer experience with the 357 has been not gone well using 140 grain load at about 1350 FPS, I'd like to hear how heavier bullets have done for those with experience.

January 20, 2015, 08:44 PM	#86
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	The 44magnum out of say a 1894 Marlin is not bad at all, a 1895 Marlin shooting the standard 405 load is pretty easy shooting also.

January 21, 2015, 07:04 AM	#89
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	The 45-70 405 is the only rifle load I can remember hearing the shmaack when it hit the paper at 100yds. The sound from a 45-70 405 is also pretty mild, to me anyway. Muzzle blast from 243/6mm and such can confuse a beginning shooter into thinking it has more recoil than a lower velocity larger caliber. My wives cousin swore his dad's old 35 Rem pump action kicked less than his newer 6mm bolt gun, there was no convincing him otherwise. I'm pretty sure the difference in muzzle blast contributed to this observation. I also don't think they were using the best hearing protection.

January 21, 2015, 07:55 AM	#90
Isaiah Junior Member Join Date: January 19, 2015 Posts: 12	I'd say 44 a little more power to get the job done

January 21, 2015, 09:22 AM	#92
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	PTCB, I see you are in Ohio, so I'm guessing you are looking for a gun to fit the newly legal "pistol caliber rifle" in place of shotgun slugs with less recoil for your daughter. This thread is a PISTOL comparison of the two rounds. Most people would agree that the .357 rifle which has far greater velocity than a pistol makes a decent deer gun, with far less limitations. If recoil is a concern, that would be the way to go. Of the two you mentioned, .44 mag is the way to go, far cheaper to shoot, and more factory ammo that is easier to find. Knwoing what you woud be using it for, .454 Casull would proabbly be a better choice than 45-70, as you have teh option of mild 45lc loads, to heavy, 44mag equiv 45lc loads, to full power 454 casull loads.

January 21, 2015, 09:24 AM	#93
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	44 AMP, Ohio does not allow rifles for deer, and last year enacted a "pistol caliber rifle" provision, though it includes staright wall cartridge rifles. Before that we were limited to shotgun slugs, muzzleloaders, and pistols.

January 21, 2015, 01:04 PM	#94
22-rimfire Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 5,323	I would choose the 44 mag myself. Correct about the straight walled cartridge change last year in Ohio.

January 21, 2015, 05:59 PM	#97
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I've shot, and killed, over fifty deer with the 357mag. I've also killed a few with the 44mag, 30-30 in a TC, and 7tcu in a TC. I can tell you for a fact that the 357mag is more than adequate for taking deer sized animals. I'm not saying it's better than the 44mag, but it will easily kill any deer hit in the vitals. The only deer I didn't recover with a handgun was shot with the 44mag and it was a bad hit. I just didn't make a good shot. Muzzle energy does not kill deer with a handgun. In fact, it doesn't even kill deer with a rifle. Anyone who tells you they shot a deer multiple times with the 357mag and didn't get it either missed or never put one in the vitals.

January 22, 2015, 07:53 AM	#98
SBH Member Join Date: January 21, 2015 Location: New Mexico Posts: 61	I have not used a .357 on game animals but I have used the 44 on Mule Deer. I just like the 44 , don't know much about the .357.

January 22, 2015, 11:22 AM	#99
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	If you start her with 44 S&W Special, she will feel it's okay to expect that. 44 Magnum ammo is easier to source and what is really needed for hunting. The padded sleeve on my 357 Uberti doesn't add enough length to be even close to a deal breaker.