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Old December 18, 2009, 04:33 AM   #26
smince
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I've taken a bunch of courses on concealed carry and close quarter handgun techniques at a major national training facility...
In these courses, did you pocket carry a small gun? Or did you use a service size gun in a belt or IWB holster?
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The way I interpreted the original post was that smince was commenting on the way in which his training had exposed a flaw in his carry methods and motivated him to change them. He then asked those that do use pocket carry as a primary method how they address an important issue with this method.
pax nailed it when she asked about FOF/scenario work. If you haven't tried a technique in FOF drills, then you really don't know if it works on the street or not. Standing on the range, shooting tight groups from your Weaver stance is a great ego booster, but it is only so much ballistic narcissism. Ground fighting with an airsoft isn't nearly as satisfying, even if it is teaching what you may realistically face.

I've found that most people get really upset when you attempt to slaughter their sacred cows.
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However, just because it might be the only way to carry a gun in some situations doesn't mean it's necessarily a good way to carry in others.
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I can get to it but not very speedy.
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I used to believe the same thing until I bought a shot timer.
At least a few here are honest about it.
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Old December 18, 2009, 04:40 AM   #27
smince
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In the interest of disclosure, I did ask this question on other forums. Here is one of the answers I got elsewhere:
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There is a reason I abandoned pocket carry for primary.

I used to carry Glock 27 in front pocket of cargo shorts (not the cargo pocket). I was pretty happy with it. But once I started investigating how difficult it would be to get the gun out of my pocket in a struggle, I saw how big a losing proposition that would be. Trying to fish your gun out of your pocket mid fight might be less than ideal.....

On the other hand, I do use the pocket to carry the BUG or "auxilliary gun". But I do not have any illusions about getting it out in a brawl. I know that if I go for the pocket pistol mid fight, I had better have the other guy all but unconscous because it will take one of my hands out of the fight for longer than I feel comfortable with...So it is a good news bad news kind of thing. I pretty much dumped the G26/27/33 for the full size guns when I made the decision to roll with the IWB holster and dress around it. So now that is the primary and the J frame is the pocket carried auxilliary gun.
And this did come from a 'big name instructor'.
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Old December 18, 2009, 04:47 AM   #28
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i carry a kel tec p32 in my right butt pocket, i now have my wallet in the left.

while i can draw with my left hand, its a pita, and requires some obvious movement.

all the training in the army of carrying stuff in the left hand/side(in case you need to salute) pays off now, as its such a habit i usually dont even think about it.

its not too big of a deal for me, tho i have thought about it.
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Old December 18, 2009, 09:29 AM   #29
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I used to believe the same thing until I bought a shot timer. I've since discovered that unless your setup allows you to shoot from inside the pocket, any advantage appears to be negligible at best. I've also discovered that if you don't have your hand in your pocket when you get the "Go" signal, pocket carry can be obscenely slow compared to IWB.
ATW525,
Thanks for sharing that.... How do you think timings differ across different seasons? For example, in the summer, I'm sure your observations are probably very reflective. What about in the fall with a few layers? Now how about the winter with multiple layers?

I posted the below a few days ago....

Quote:
This was not one of those "sitting around then poof... It dawned on me" type of epiphanies. My wife and I had a situation that brought home the error of my way.

We live in a very nice neighborhood, but pretty close to some not so nice neighborhoods.

A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I were walking the dogs, around 10pm. I'm carrying my 629 iwb and as usual feeling comforted by it's presence. It is really cold out and I'm bundled up pretty well. A car turns onto the block, rap music blaring, low riding with 1 inch tires and window's tinted well beyond legal limits. The car stops directly across the street from us and sits. My mind immediately plays out my moves if the situation escalates. I felt my coat and had the sickening realization, there is no way I'm getting to my gun in any reasonable amount of time. The coat is too long, too heavy and I'm wearing too many layers to move out of the way. A few more seconds go by and the car drives off.

Since that moment, I'm back to carrying my SP101 in my pocket. It is very clear to me that accessibility trumps both power and capacity in personal defense situations.

I know that I can change my attire, but I live in the northeast and it gets pretty darn cold here.
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Old December 18, 2009, 09:37 AM   #30
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I've found that most people get really upset when you attempt to slaughter their sacred cows.
It is comments like this that reduce us all...
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Old December 18, 2009, 09:45 AM   #31
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For many of the above stated reasons, . . . I don't pocket carry except in some extreme circumstances.

A quality IWB makes the most sense (though I personally prefer a shoulder holster) for speed, . . . accessability, . . . and accessability with either hand.

Even if it is a "tuckable" and worn correctly, . . . strong hand drawing is certainly no slower than a pocket carrier starting with his hands ourside his pocket.

An IWB worn at 4:30 for righties, . . . and 7:30 for lefties will allow either hand to access the weapon, . . . though the off hand does take some practice.

May God bless,
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Old December 18, 2009, 01:21 PM   #32
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I've found that most people get really upset when you attempt to slaughter their sacred cows.
Why can't all our sacred cows just get along?

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Old December 18, 2009, 04:40 PM   #33
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ATW525,
Thanks for sharing that.... How do you think timings differ across different seasons? For example, in the summer, I'm sure your observations are probably very reflective. What about in the fall with a few layers? Now how about the winter with multiple layers?
Layers certainly can complicate things, and I've found that some are more restrictive than others. Generally speaking, I find that IWB and pocket carry in the front pants pocket are similarly effected. If the layers don't obstruct access to the pocket, they usually aren't much of a problem for IWB access either.

Now, there might be speed advantage to carrying in the pocket of the outer layer, but I generally don't like to carry like that (it complicates situations where I might need to remove that layer) so I've never tried it against the clock.
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Old December 18, 2009, 05:00 PM   #34
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I've recently resolved to do both whenever possible.

I used to ONLY carry IWB, or ONLY carry in the pocket. IWB would be typically served by a Colt Commander, and pocket carry was done with a Smith 642.

Now I just carry both of 'em whenever I can, and I'm working on perfecting my carry technique and my off-hand draw and presentation of the snubbie.

That's the neat thing about living in America... I can.

Except New Mexico, where CCW permits (even though I have reciprocity) only allow for 1 firearm on the person. Then I fall back to the strong-side Colt.
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Old December 18, 2009, 05:16 PM   #35
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1. Are you able to access your weapon with your off-hand if you needed to?
Yes I carry in my weak side front pocket,so I can't get it with my strong hand.although shooting lefty there's not much drop off in ability.

Quote:
2. How do you do it?
can't


Quote:
3. Have you even thought about it?
sure, I only pocket carry when I really don't need to carry.If I go someplace I feel the need to carry I carry 2 guns.

Quote:
4. Do you even care?
again yes.And besided FOF I'm better off with my gun in my pocket.
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Old December 19, 2009, 08:57 PM   #36
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I'm not a fan of pocket carry for primary pistols, though often rely on pocket carry for secondary pistols. Specifically, front pocket, support-hand side. Why? I can't reliably access a pistol from the pocket in other than an upright, relatively static position. In other words, the ideal "standing and walking around" position. And since I'm out of that position so often throughout the average day, let alone during training cycles... I chose not to rely on pocket carry for a primary except in rare circumstances. But that's just me.

As for accessing and using a support-side pocketed BUG, I train to default to doing so with my support-hand. I figure at that point I've got so much working against me that I've got to make up some time, if nothing else.
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Old December 29, 2009, 12:36 PM   #37
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Nothing's perfect. Is it possible you might need to draw your gun with your other hand? Sure, it's possible. But there are bigger problems with pocket carry than that*. Still, strong-side front pocket carry has so many tactical advantages of such great value that the problems are outweighed, at least in my opinion.


*such as the difficulty of drawing your gun when sitting.
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Old December 29, 2009, 03:26 PM   #38
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POCKET

Pocket carry is easier for ME living in FLORIDA .Tried diferent holsters but pocket works best NO PRINTING IN FL.
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Old January 4, 2010, 01:07 PM   #39
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Here in California I have read that putting ones hand on a firearm and generating fear in another can lead to a felony. For what it is worth, I find greater comfort in being able to put my hand in my pocket and grip a handgun than worry about not being able to very quickly, or easily reach the handgun with my weak hand.

Yes I can get to the handgun with the weakside hand (even if I have to take off the pants). It just is not quick.

I've thought about it and given more value to having my hand on a gun under some circumstances, without stirring up notice of same.

Do I care ? Hmmmm yes and no. It would ne nice to have a J frame in each pocket, but sometimes I am compelled to simply accept the givens. In any event, here in California one is limited to three handguns for carry. However I figure there seems to be no 'Perfect' method, all seem to have advantages and disadvantages. It seems one is free to focus on the advantages, or the disadvantages, of each method. Then pick the method one is most comfortable with and practice, practice, practice. Be safe out there.
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Old January 4, 2010, 01:45 PM   #40
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1. Are you able to access your weapon with your off-hand if you needed to?

2. How do you do it?

3. Have you even thought about it?

4. Do you even care?
1. Yes, but it takes some contorsions.

2. I have to be seated and then set my feet and twist my shoulder (reach with the body, not the hand) to my left pocket).

3. Yes, that is why I do not do it. Also, pocket carry is dangerous as we have had news stories here at TFL over the years where people have been killed or seriously injured with pocket carry (including Yankees manager Billy Martin who was nearly killed at a bar in Indianapolis when a pistol fell out of a pocket of a fellow bar patron).

4. Yes, I care, that is why I do not carry in my pocket. If I was up on my feet more it might be a good place for a third or fourth gun, but just to drop the pistol in my pocket as the gun shoppe commandos tell you (and then they always pat their pockets) is less than optimal.

Pockets in outside cover garments, winter coats and the like, may be utilitarian especially if seated in an automobile.
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Old January 4, 2010, 02:54 PM   #41
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I agree with Mav. I pocket carry only when I am not expecting to need a gun.

Why the criticism of the 5 shot snubbie especially the hammerless versions for pocket carry.
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Old January 9, 2010, 09:24 AM   #42
smince
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Why the criticism of the 5 shot snubbie especially the hammerless versions for pocket carry.
Not a criticism of the 5-shot.

More so those who shoot a 5-shot occasionally, stick it in their pocket, and consider themselves 'prepared'.
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Old January 9, 2010, 09:57 AM   #43
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Not a moot point.

I too asked this same question. In the field its not an issue. But, when you're carrying concealed it is. Most pocket guns allow a very small amount of ammo. And, even though in most situations this amount is enough, it is comforting to know that you have a backup. You never know when your mag will malfunction even if you dont need extra ammo. I solve the problem by carrying on the inside of my weak side ankle with a holster that allows for an extra magazine. This allows me to access the weapon and spare mag from either side. When you're carrying concealed, you should always keep in mind that your clothing should go around the weapon rather than vice versa. Cargo pants are a good solution to this problem. It's pretty easy to get to a cargo pocket with either hand. If cargos are not an option, then think about the angle of the opening of your pocket. A lesser angle and shallower pocket makes grabbing the mag with your off hand less of an act of contortion. Or, if all else fails, carry an extra mag in each pocket. Then access with either hand really does become a moot point.
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Old January 9, 2010, 11:00 AM   #44
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Not a criticism of the 5-shot.

More so those who shoot a 5-shot occasionally, stick it in their pocket, and consider themselves 'prepared'.
Smince, can we be a little less judgmental... You wrote that criticism in a reply to me. I carry an 5 shot sp101, which I have put many thousands of rounds through and shoot every range trip. I have used this gun in many of the training courses I have taken. Obviously this comment would not apply to me, regardless of your intent to make it so.

But, what of the Dentist, Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant, Librarian or other who doesn't have any interest in guns and has filled their lives with other activities and interests. They buy a gun for insurance and pay their premiums a few times a year practicing at the range. Are they less prepared for the world than Joe/Jane Commando carrying his/her 4 guns, 3 knives, brass knuckles and what ever else strikes his/her fancy? Should they be judged and degraded because they aren't capable of taking on a gang single handedly? Perhaps, being able to defend against a late night movie theater parking lot mugger is really the extent of their concern. These people are not inferior to you, smince. They merely value things differently then you do.

I, and I suspect you as well, (really) enjoy guns. How much of what we justify as necessity is really just furthering our enjoyment of a hobby?
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Old January 9, 2010, 11:41 AM   #45
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OK, maybe I should have said:
Quote:
More so those who shoot a 5-shot occasionally, stick it in their pocket, Post On Gun Forums Regularly and consider themselves 'prepared'.

Last edited by smince; January 9, 2010 at 12:56 PM.
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Old January 9, 2010, 12:03 PM   #46
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smince,

I don't know if you have heard of him but Michael Bane does a very good podcast called DownRange Radio. In his last podcast (#142) he talks about thinking about the "odds" when going thru life activities. Seeing the world as it is rather than we wish it to be. I would recommend it for a listen.

While one may be best prepared wearing a 1911 and carrying a tricked out AR-15 it may not be very likely that you would need such if you arre just going to the mini-mart for milk.
I pocket carry a five shot revolver and based on the lifestyle I lead I think that option suffices.

I could be wrong and be attacked by a ninja hit team so then I might be out of luck.
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Old January 9, 2010, 12:58 PM   #47
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Wow folks...

Carry what you want, how you want and train a bunch.

I live in the country and pocket carry a 642-1 every day. When I'm in town walking into the store, or wherever, my hand is always on the grip. When I'm driving the gun is secured and ready at my side. On the tractor, the pocket holster and gun get tucked into my waistband appendix style or a coat pocket. I have speedloaders and strips pretty much everywhere - truck, tractors, pockets...you name it.

Because you can never be 'too' prepared, there's also a 22 rifle and a 12 gauge behind the seat, ready to go.

Works for me.

rd
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Old January 9, 2010, 01:33 PM   #48
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Ok, I listened to Mr. Banes podcast.

I don't see that he and I are at 'odds' (pardon the pun).

I'm not 'operator grade' as he refers to. You see me out, and you wouldn't even think I had a gun, which is as it should be. No 511 gear, BDU's or "photo vests". Believe it or not, I usually DON'T have a rifle or shotgun in my vehicle.

I don't play the odds. I like to stack the deck in my favor. That's why I carry a G19 or 26 instead of a 5-shot snubbie. That's why I pay upwards of $1000 a to attend professional training once or twice a year. One instructor is fond of saying "Luck favors the prepared".

Mr. Bane is correct: the world is a dangerous place. I live in a small town, pop less than 5000. A good friend of mine didn't expect to shoot every round out of his LCP one night last year when he went to visit his girlfriend, but it happened. And it served him, but just barely.

Now he's looking for a bigger gun with more capacity and seeking better training.

I think I'm through with this one.

EDITED TO ADD: My wife, son, and I just went out for lunch. Our round trip was less than 5 miles. I carried my G19, reload, and a knife. My wife had her EDC, reload and knife. FWIW.

Last edited by smince; January 9, 2010 at 03:19 PM.
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Old January 9, 2010, 04:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by smince
Ok, I listened to Mr. Banes podcast. I don't see that he and I are at 'odds' (pardon the pun).
Did you catch the part where he talks about carrying different guns depending on where he is(around about 42:31 in the podcast)? That is the more important part that I thought pertained to this thread. In particular the personal threat level he discussed and how it differs from Ding Dong ID and Kandahar.

BTW I think having a gun the bad guy doesn't know you have stacks the deck pretty well.
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Old January 9, 2010, 07:04 PM   #50
smince
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Did you catch the part where he talks about carrying different guns depending on where he is(around about 42:31 in the podcast)? That is the more important part that I thought pertained to this thread. In particular the personal threat level he discussed and how it differs from Ding Dong ID and Kandahar.
Sure I heard that. Question: What do you do when the bad guys come down to Ding Dong?

ASSUMING everything will be a 1 on 1 affair and ASSUMING that 1 or 2 rounds will solve all your problems is just frankly ludicrous.

Quote:
BTW I think having a gun the bad guy doesn't know you have stacks the deck pretty well.
Did you read the part where I said you wouldn't be able to tell I was armed with my Glock?
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