Remington New Model misinformation

parsley.farm · March 3, 2013, 05:35 PM

There seems to be so much misinformation out there about the Remington New Model (commonly referred to as the model 1858), even from websites that you'd think would be credible...even from some gun manufacturers/distributors/resellers/retailers. What is correct?

Here is what I believe to be true, tell me if it is;

The gun was called the "New Model". Not an "1858". It was available in .36 and .44, so it wasn't just referred to as a "New Model Army" (as .36 would be a "New Model Navy". It was not first made in 1858 (but in 1861?)

Pietta and Uberti (and Davide Pedersoli and ?) make a replica of it, but call it an "1858". Pietta makes an oversized model? Uberti is closer to the actual size? Both companies make a .36 and .44 version of this "New Model Army" which doesn't make sense? Are their replicas (their .36 and .44) the exact same size other than the chamber/bore size? Was the original Remington New Model Army the same size as the original New Model Navy?

Why don't Uberti or Pietta (or Davide Pedersoli) make an exact copy of a New Model Navy?

Was there a "Beals" model that was somehow different?

I found a "Remington 1861 Navy Conversion" on Gunbroker.com that has no recoil shield...the frame is flat (like a Dance Brothers) behind the cylinder/conversion gate ring...Is this how the Navy looked thoughout it's manufacturing run?

All of these were steel framed? Were they blued, browned, or color case hardened...which parts? Any difference between the Army cal. and Navy cal.?

Does anyone have pictures of a Pietta replica next to an original so I can see the size difference? How about a Uberti next to an original or a Uberti next to a Pietta? How about an original Remington New Model Navy next to an original Remington New Model Army?

It also sounds as if there were variations over the years of the original? How many carbine versions were made? Was there an "improved" version of the New Model?

What is true and what is not?

PFMP

"You know what your problem is, it's that you haven't seen enough movies. All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." -Steve Martin

mykeal · March 3, 2013, 07:51 PM

Remington built their first revolver in 1857, it being the Remington-Beals First Model Revolver (their name). It was a .31 cal 5 shot pocket revolver with a 3" octagonal barrel. The Second Model Revolver was built in 1858 and differed from the First Model by a spur type trigger guard and a redesigned grip. The Third Model Revolver was slightly larger but still .31 cal; it had a loading lever, longer cylinder and a longer, 4" barrel.

In 1860 they got into the large bore revolver market with the Remington-Beals Army Model Revolver. It was a large frame 6 shot .44 cal revolver with a 8" octagonal barrel. It was produced in 1861 and 1862. It was not well received by the Army as it fouled quickly; the barrel threads were fully enclosed by the frame at the barrel breach, right up to the cylinder face. They also made a Remington-Beals Navy Model Revolver in .36 cal with a 7 1/2" octagonal barrel; it was built on a slightly smaller frame and had a 6 shot cylinder.

Remington attempted to correct the fouling fault by relieving the frame at the cylinder face; at the same time they redesigned the loading lever upper surface to allow the cylinder arbor pin to slide forward without having to drop the lever, which unfortunately allowed it to 'disengage' of it's own will. They were returned to have a screw installed to prevent this problem from occuring. This model was called the 1861 Army Revolver, or Remington Old Model Army Revolver. It was also the first model to have safety notches in the cylinder on some units.

In 1863 they introduced the Remington New Model Army Revolver which included all the above corrective actions. This is the model we know as the 1858 Remington today. There were 122,000 New Model Army revolvers made from 1863 through 1875. There was also a Remington New Model Navy on the smaller frame in .36 cal.

I recommend Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms as an invaluable aid.

Hawg · March 3, 2013, 08:28 PM

What Mikey said.

parsley.farm · March 3, 2013, 11:09 PM

Looking for a used copy of the Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms...Is there a big difference in the editions (Looks like the 9th is the latest) I'm mostly concerned with the guns in use (not necessarily just the ones being manufactured) from around 1840s thru 1890s.

Also, is there size difference between paperbacks and the hardcovers? I'd like the be able to closely examine photos.

pfmp
"You know what your problem is, it's that you haven't seen enough movies. All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." -Steve Martin

Hellgate · March 4, 2013, 11:03 AM

It is mistakenly called an 1858 Remington (rather than the 1863 NMA) because Remington put an 1858 patent date on the barrel for some prior designs to the gun.
The Armi San Poualo/Euroarms Remington are allegedly copies of a late version of the Remington Beals model and is the lightest weight, smallest frame of the Remmies I have handled. Their Navy models are built on the same frame as the 44s only with the shorter barrels. The Uberti is closer in appearance to the 1863 NMA with a smoother transition from the frame to the barrel (less of a step down from the frame to the barrel as in the originals).

pohill · March 4, 2013, 11:17 AM

1.Originals: Remington-Beals and Remington New Model
2.barrel address on New Model

Old Dragoon · March 6, 2013, 10:03 PM

The Remington - Beals Elliot's patent was the R -B Model that had the sliding cylinder pin, it is an Old Army, there was a spring inside the frame that was supposed to put enough pressure on the pin so as not to move forward, but did not work well. These were reworked at the factory to place a screw placed on the loading lever to hold the pin in place. Later the Slide Mortise was eliminated.
The models that were modified to include some or all of the NMA improvements was the Remington - Beal's Elliot's Transition to the NMA, all made during the last 6 months of the Old Army/Navy production These can be found in the Remington Army and Navy Pistols 1861-1898, pages 342-349, available at Amazon and other booksellers. The modifications were performed on the Army and Navy pistols.

Armi San Paolo/Euroarms "1858" revolvers were patterned after the second of these 3 Remington - Beals Elliot's Transition to NMA models (barely a relief at breech) made during the last 6 months of R-B framed Old Army/Navy.

NONE of the reproductions are real 1858 copies, all are copies of original Remington pistols. The 1858 name is because of the patent date on the bbls.

I believe you can find my thread on the Remington - Beal's Elliot's Transition to NMA in a question about Euroarms pistols, on this site and others.

Hellgate · March 7, 2013, 12:21 AM

Old Dragoon,
Are you SURE the 44 cal repros are all copies of the originals? The Pietta just seems heavier, klunkier, and has a distinct step down to the barrel from the top of the frame. All the originals I have seen have a fairly smooth slope from the top of the frame to the barrel without a drop off as seen in the Piettas (and my Euroarms too) when viewed directly from the side. Did some of the originals weigh 1/4 lb more than others like the Pietta compared to the lighter Euroarms?

Hawg · March 7, 2013, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Are you SURE the 44 cal repros are all copies of the originals?

None of the repros are true copies of the originals. There are differences in all of them.

March 3, 2013, 05:35 PM	#1
parsley.farm Junior Member Join Date: February 11, 2013 Posts: 11	Remington New Model misinformation There seems to be so much misinformation out there about the Remington New Model (commonly referred to as the model 1858), even from websites that you'd think would be credible...even from some gun manufacturers/distributors/resellers/retailers. What is correct? Here is what I believe to be true, tell me if it is; The gun was called the "New Model". Not an "1858". It was available in .36 and .44, so it wasn't just referred to as a "New Model Army" (as .36 would be a "New Model Navy". It was not first made in 1858 (but in 1861?) Pietta and Uberti (and Davide Pedersoli and ?) make a replica of it, but call it an "1858". Pietta makes an oversized model? Uberti is closer to the actual size? Both companies make a .36 and .44 version of this "New Model Army" which doesn't make sense? Are their replicas (their .36 and .44) the exact same size other than the chamber/bore size? Was the original Remington New Model Army the same size as the original New Model Navy? Why don't Uberti or Pietta (or Davide Pedersoli) make an exact copy of a New Model Navy? Was there a "Beals" model that was somehow different? I found a "Remington 1861 Navy Conversion" on Gunbroker.com that has no recoil shield...the frame is flat (like a Dance Brothers) behind the cylinder/conversion gate ring...Is this how the Navy looked thoughout it's manufacturing run? All of these were steel framed? Were they blued, browned, or color case hardened...which parts? Any difference between the Army cal. and Navy cal.? Does anyone have pictures of a Pietta replica next to an original so I can see the size difference? How about a Uberti next to an original or a Uberti next to a Pietta? How about an original Remington New Model Navy next to an original Remington New Model Army? It also sounds as if there were variations over the years of the original? How many carbine versions were made? Was there an "improved" version of the New Model? What is true and what is not? PFMP "You know what your problem is, it's that you haven't seen enough movies. All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." -Steve Martin

March 3, 2013, 11:09 PM	#4
parsley.farm Junior Member Join Date: February 11, 2013 Posts: 11	Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms Looking for a used copy of the Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms...Is there a big difference in the editions (Looks like the 9th is the latest) I'm mostly concerned with the guns in use (not necessarily just the ones being manufactured) from around 1840s thru 1890s. Also, is there size difference between paperbacks and the hardcovers? I'd like the be able to closely examine photos. pfmp "You know what your problem is, it's that you haven't seen enough movies. All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." -Steve Martin

March 4, 2013, 11:03 AM	#5
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	It is mistakenly called an 1858 Remington (rather than the 1863 NMA) because Remington put an 1858 patent date on the barrel for some prior designs to the gun. The Armi San Poualo/Euroarms Remington are allegedly copies of a late version of the Remington Beals model and is the lightest weight, smallest frame of the Remmies I have handled. Their Navy models are built on the same frame as the 44s only with the shorter barrels. The Uberti is closer in appearance to the 1863 NMA with a smoother transition from the frame to the barrel (less of a step down from the frame to the barrel as in the originals). __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell) Last edited by Hellgate; March 4, 2013 at 12:39 PM.

March 7, 2013, 12:21 AM	#8
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Old Dragoon, Are you SURE the 44 cal repros are all copies of the originals? The Pietta just seems heavier, klunkier, and has a distinct step down to the barrel from the top of the frame. All the originals I have seen have a fairly smooth slope from the top of the frame to the barrel without a drop off as seen in the Piettas (and my Euroarms too) when viewed directly from the side. Did some of the originals weigh 1/4 lb more than others like the Pietta compared to the lighter Euroarms? __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

March 3, 2013, 07:51 PM	#2
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Remington built their first revolver in 1857, it being the Remington-Beals First Model Revolver (their name). It was a .31 cal 5 shot pocket revolver with a 3" octagonal barrel. The Second Model Revolver was built in 1858 and differed from the First Model by a spur type trigger guard and a redesigned grip. The Third Model Revolver was slightly larger but still .31 cal; it had a loading lever, longer cylinder and a longer, 4" barrel. In 1860 they got into the large bore revolver market with the Remington-Beals Army Model Revolver. It was a large frame 6 shot .44 cal revolver with a 8" octagonal barrel. It was produced in 1861 and 1862. It was not well received by the Army as it fouled quickly; the barrel threads were fully enclosed by the frame at the barrel breach, right up to the cylinder face. They also made a Remington-Beals Navy Model Revolver in .36 cal with a 7 1/2" octagonal barrel; it was built on a slightly smaller frame and had a 6 shot cylinder. Remington attempted to correct the fouling fault by relieving the frame at the cylinder face; at the same time they redesigned the loading lever upper surface to allow the cylinder arbor pin to slide forward without having to drop the lever, which unfortunately allowed it to 'disengage' of it's own will. They were returned to have a screw installed to prevent this problem from occuring. This model was called the 1861 Army Revolver, or Remington Old Model Army Revolver. It was also the first model to have safety notches in the cylinder on some units. In 1863 they introduced the Remington New Model Army Revolver which included all the above corrective actions. This is the model we know as the 1858 Remington today. There were 122,000 New Model Army revolvers made from 1863 through 1875. There was also a Remington New Model Navy on the smaller frame in .36 cal. I recommend Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms as an invaluable aid.

March 3, 2013, 08:28 PM	#3
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	What Mikey said.

March 4, 2013, 11:17 AM	#6
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	1.Originals: Remington-Beals and Remington New Model 2.barrel address on New Model

March 6, 2013, 10:03 PM	#7
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	The Remington - Beals Elliot's patent was the R -B Model that had the sliding cylinder pin, it is an Old Army, there was a spring inside the frame that was supposed to put enough pressure on the pin so as not to move forward, but did not work well. These were reworked at the factory to place a screw placed on the loading lever to hold the pin in place. Later the Slide Mortise was eliminated. The models that were modified to include some or all of the NMA improvements was the Remington - Beal's Elliot's Transition to the NMA, all made during the last 6 months of the Old Army/Navy production These can be found in the Remington Army and Navy Pistols 1861-1898, pages 342-349, available at Amazon and other booksellers. The modifications were performed on the Army and Navy pistols. Armi San Paolo/Euroarms "1858" revolvers were patterned after the second of these 3 Remington - Beals Elliot's Transition to NMA models (barely a relief at breech) made during the last 6 months of R-B framed Old Army/Navy. NONE of the reproductions are real 1858 copies, all are copies of original Remington pistols. The 1858 name is because of the patent date on the bbls. I believe you can find my thread on the Remington - Beal's Elliot's Transition to NMA in a question about Euroarms pistols, on this site and others.