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December 12, 2011, 10:25 AM | #1 |
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Carrying without a holster
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Wis. cop charged after gun goes off at mall http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Saf...s-off-at-mall/ It was a 40cal S&W with "no safety" apparently - I'm guessing it was an M&P? I'm convinced though that a holster of somekind is an absolute necesity - even pocket carry - they have pocket holsters, but I think a holster of somekind is necesary. Last edited by C0untZer0; December 12, 2011 at 10:37 AM. |
December 12, 2011, 11:41 AM | #2 |
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I don't like carry without a holster, but still... Does Wisconsin law require holsters for carry by off-duty LE or CCW? Does Wisconsin law mandate safeties for semi-autos? If not, the charges seem to be BS.
Meanwhile, I would guess an M&P, but it could have been a P99, Sigma, 4066 DAO etc. Can't expect modern media to get gun details, though... Or explanations of applicable laws... |
December 12, 2011, 11:55 AM | #3 | |
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Quote from the linked story.....
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December 12, 2011, 12:12 PM | #4 | |
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The law the sergeant was charged with violating:
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December 12, 2011, 12:13 PM | #5 | |
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December 12, 2011, 12:14 PM | #6 |
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I called the department and they said that they carry the S&W M&P.
I just want to contrast that with when I called University of Illinois Campus Police to inquire about a ND by one of their officers, and when I asked what their standard issue duty weapon was, they replied "We don't release that information to the public." OK... So anyway, it was an M&P. |
December 12, 2011, 12:16 PM | #7 |
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I pocket carry my 642 without a holster. I tried ever way from Sunday to get it to fire (empty of course). Just don't see it. Not with a 642 anyway.
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December 12, 2011, 12:35 PM | #8 |
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ATW525, the "injury" was described as a welt.
The guy dropped a gun. That in itself isn't negligence. Question is whether WI law mandated the use of holsters or safeties. If yes, criminal charges might make sense. If no, then this should fall under accidents, with regard to criminal law. That is not to say civil actions would be out of line. |
December 12, 2011, 01:06 PM | #9 | |
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December 12, 2011, 01:19 PM | #10 | ||
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Quote:
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December 12, 2011, 01:20 PM | #11 |
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I am not a big fan of the Glock-type "safe action" setup as being the only safety on an auto. That's why I think the grip safeties are a good idea on the XDs.
But anyway, I'm guessing the weapon slipped down his pants and when he tried to stop it from falling he snagged the trigger. If the pistol had a manual safety that was engaged - probably it would have lessened the chance that it would have gone off, if it had a grip safety - probably it would have lessened the chance that it would have gone off, depending how the gun was grasped, but like I said, i'm guessing he just grabbed for it and his finger went into the trigger gaurd snagging the trigger. As far as the legal technicalities, I guess lawyers and union reps can argue about that ad nauseum, but the fact is - he did discharge his weapon. |
December 12, 2011, 01:43 PM | #12 |
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This is a guy with 25yrs plus of LE experience and President of the Milwaukee Police Supervisors Association. How the hell could he not recognize the possible problems with carrying a safe-action pistol in his waistband with no holster? Is his judgment that bad or is it just his ignorance regarding how the pistol works that caused him to Plaxico himself?
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December 12, 2011, 02:46 PM | #13 |
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^ Beat me to the Plaxico joke.
Anyway, he really should know better. And I'm sure the department pays him enough to buy a $20 IWB holster.
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December 12, 2011, 02:58 PM | #14 | |
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Dropping a gun and trying to catch it is foolish, if not neglignet. I know that you do not Carry Plaxico style. You know you do not Carry Plaxico style. This guy was a Professional*, and he did not know you do not Carry Plaxico style? Negligent. *....but was he the only one, in this room, that he knew of, Professional enough..... |
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December 12, 2011, 02:58 PM | #15 |
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Reminds of a story.
Two off duty Anchorage cops were in the local credit union to negotiate a loan for a joint fishing boat gig. One of them dropped his service revolver. He looked around sheepishly and with his foot, shoved it under the chair of his partner, Who pushed it back. This went on, back and forth until the loan officer finely said. "that's enough, just pick up the damn thing so we can get back to business". Probably nothing would have been said but the loan officer ratted out the two cops to every cop she ran across. Peer pressure is pure he!!.
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December 12, 2011, 03:31 PM | #16 |
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People seem to be confusing de facto negligence with criminal or culpable negligence. Dropping a gun, and trying to catch said gun, is negligent in a sense. But how do you establish mens rea with regard to a poor reflex action?
Culpable negligence usually requires either utter recklessness, or else deliberate undertaking of actions that a reasonable person should know would be likely to result in harm. A fair number of people, just based on numbers who post here, seem to think Mexican carry, and unholstered pocket carry, are just fine. It could be argued that a reasonable person might not see an obvious likelihood of harm from such practice. (IIRC, kraigwy pockets a snubby without a holster.) So, unless Wisconsin mandates the use of holsters (as some states do) or safeties (also as some states do), then this guy may be a knucklehead, but that does not make him a criminal. |
December 12, 2011, 03:34 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
Stupid should hurt, and if it hurts bystanders, it should hurt more. Last edited by jimbob86; December 12, 2011 at 03:45 PM. |
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December 12, 2011, 03:44 PM | #18 | |
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Quote:
Edit: I think actus reus is the relevant statute.
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December 12, 2011, 04:12 PM | #19 | ||
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1. It is in his pocket, where it is unlikely to fall out/end up jiggling down his pants leg and trigger that reflexive grab move that caused the problem here (and in several other prominent past cases). 2. It has a long double action pull that is comparatively heavier, making it less likely that an object in the trigger guard would fire the revolver. Personally, I am still not a fan of holsterless pocket carry; but what kraigwy describes doing and what this guy did are worlds apart in terms of safety and reasonableness. |
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December 12, 2011, 04:32 PM | #20 |
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"I pocket carry my 642 without a holster. I tried ever way from Sunday to get it to fire (empty of course). Just don't see it. Not with a 642 anyway."
I carry an SP101 everyday that way everyday, but revolvers are a different animal and are not something carried "cocked" whereas most semi's will be carried cocked, because no one wants to draw and then rack the slide while your threat waits for you to get prepared. I ride four wheelers/ATV's like that all the time! I don't worry about an accidental discharge, but with my Glock I ALWAYS have a holster and a secure one at that. |
December 12, 2011, 04:34 PM | #21 |
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I do not believe this man should be hung out to dry,,,
By that I do not think he should be charged with a felony,,,
He had no intent to harm and wasn't under the influence of drugs or alcohol. But if I read the article correctly his charge would be a misdemeanor,,, And in his state a misdemeanor would not disqualify him from serving as a police officer. If any one of us would have done the same thing,,, We would be facing prosecution for that same misdemeanor charge. If any of you are thinking he should get preferential treatment,,, Simply because he is a police officer,,, Shame on you I say! He made a poor decision to waistband carry,,, His poor decision facilitated the negligent discharge,,, The man dropped his handgun and it went off in a public venue,,, The fact that he is an experienced officer makes it even more negligent. No matter how slightly, a person was injured,,, He can stand up and say he is sincerely sorry all day long,,, In his career how many times has he charged people who expressed sincere regret. I won't try to make the old argument that police officers need to be held to a higher standard,,, But I will make the argument that they need to be held to the same standard,,, Again I say, if any of we citizens had the same misfortune,,, We would be charged with no questions asked. Either charge him or never charge any other citizen for the same occurrence. Aarond
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December 12, 2011, 05:07 PM | #22 |
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I always considered carrying without a holster a good way to
eventually lose part or all of your family jewels.
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December 12, 2011, 05:18 PM | #23 |
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I'm trying to figure out what kind of fashion statement he was trying to make wearing pants so baggy that a full size duty gun could fall down them ......
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December 12, 2011, 06:38 PM | #24 |
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And yet you could fail to maintain adequate following distance on a wet road, fail to get enough traction, and rear-end a stopped car - yet not draw criminal charges unless the state decided you weren't only too close, but reckless. Drivers kill people in preventable accidents, and get reamed in civil court, yet typically they do not face criminal records or jail times.
Was the guy stupid? Sure. Do I carry in that manner, or recommend carry in that manner? No. And yet I feel we as a nation tend to overcharge and/or criminalize way too many things. This is especially true when guns are involved. And no, I am not for cutting him a break because he is a cop. If anything, I would hold him to a higher standard in a civil suit. |
December 12, 2011, 06:47 PM | #25 |
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How to make a 642 or 442 trigger cycle in holster-less pocket carry:
Forget a house or car key in that pocket, then insert gun. That'll do it. This is why I use pocket holsters - and try not to ever put anything else in that pocket. Make any DA trigger cycle: snag a windbreaker drawstring on the trigger while holstering; or loose shirttail material. We had another TFL guy post about a discharge due to worn holster leather snagging his trigger when he holstered. Some folks might want to get off the high horse long enough to consider that someday it might be them, remote though the possibility may seem, that screws up. At that point, their take on what should constitute a crime may have a sudden shift... |
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