Classifier Questions

mollow · December 21, 2006, 10:38 AM

It's not clear in the COF instruction sheet for the classifier whether you are drawing your weapon in the strings that have your back facing the targets. Or is the gun starting out already in your hand?
Also, on that string, is it best to turn to the right or to the left assuming the shooter (me) is right hand dominant. Or is it just a matter of comfort?

HSMITH · December 21, 2006, 10:42 AM

If it is a USPSA classifier the gun will be holstered.

I like to see most people turn around the gun, you would turn to the right if your holster is on the right side. Less chance of the the muzzle of the gun breaking the 180 doing it this way.

mollow · December 21, 2006, 11:04 AM

Yes, I'm sorry, the classifier is for IDPA.

DanV1317 · December 21, 2006, 01:15 PM

haha, i know i wouldn't want a guy shooting the classifier turned up range with a gun in his hand. If he is a righty and turns to his left, he sweeps EVERYBODY!

If you're righty, turn to your right. That way the gun only has to go 90 degrees. If you turn to your left, your gun will be turning 270 degrees.

And turn the same way every time you turn. It will become natural after awhile. Practice Practice.

mollow · December 21, 2006, 02:24 PM

Yeah, I figured it would be a draw from holster; and the advice about turning around the gun makes perfect sense. Thanks.

jac714 · December 21, 2006, 08:36 PM

Most people I shoot IDPA with turn then draw for the classifier. I turn into the gun, It allows me to get on target faster. Others turn the other way, it is a matter of choice.

Jim Watson · December 21, 2006, 09:10 PM

On the El Prez and similar, competitors turn into the gun, it puts them on target a smidgen sooner. Tacticians turn to the off side, it keeps the gun farther away from an assailant who might try to grab it as they draw.

GoSlash27 · December 22, 2006, 08:24 AM

Here's how I do it (not necessarily the best way):

Step forward with the dominant-side foot
pivot on your toes to your weak side

I don't reach for the weapon until I am actually pivoting, as the movement helps to get my cover garment out of the way.

HiPowering Along · December 22, 2006, 01:46 PM

You'll also make a friend of the SO if you indicate what direction you're going to turn....just remember the Golden 180 degree rule!

Ken O · December 22, 2006, 08:54 PM

Just want to add that the SO should ask which way the shooter is going turn so he and the rest of the squad can move to the safe side.

DanV1317 · December 23, 2006, 07:55 AM

If you're draw is correct and you pull the pistol straight up your side to your pectoral muscle, then push straight out, you can start your draw as soon as the buzzer goes off and as soon as you start turning. No need to be turned around before you start your draw. The firearm is still pointing towards the ground if you do it right. In the name of safety though, do it how you feel most comfortable.

rhino · December 23, 2006, 04:49 PM

Quote:

If you're draw is correct and you pull the pistol straight up your side to your pectoral muscle, then push straight out, you can start your draw as soon as the buzzer goes off and as soon as you start turning. No need to be turned around before you start your draw. The firearm is still pointing towards the ground if you do it right. In the name of safety though, do it how you feel most comfortable.

That's only going to be acceptable at ranges where it's allowed based on their defined "muzzle safe directions." At all the clubs where I shoot IDPA, they have adopted the 180 degree rule (borrowed from USPSA) as their designated muzzle safe directions.

You might be able to argue your way through such a draw with a 180 degree rule in effect, but probably not where I shoot.

In any case, you don't even lose significant time if when turning if you wait to clear your holster until you're clear of the 180 restrictions. The slow part of the draw for most people is the reaction plus getting their hand onto the gun in a firing grip. That time is large compared to the time it takes to rip it out of the holster and present the gun to the target.

Jim Watson · December 23, 2006, 05:10 PM

We had some guys doing the Sul Technique in which South American SWATs point the gun at the ground and turn around its bore axis to round a corner... supposedly. We explained that this was not permissable, that the gun would actually either be pointed behind the line or at their feet. Therefore I would not allow a draw as described by DanV.

I DO, however, get my hand on the gun butt as I turn so all I have to do when I see the end target is to pull it. As do a lot of successful shooters.

rhino · December 23, 2006, 05:40 PM

And you sir, are a wise and experienced shooter.

DanV1317 · December 23, 2006, 06:55 PM

What's the difference? If i'm turning to the right and i'm right handed, i'm drawing the gun while turning and so therefor i haven't broken the 180 line. Also, if i am drawing the gun and it is pointing downward until the gun comes up to my pectoral muscle, i dont see what's wrong with it...? Are you trying to say the draw is illegal or that i'm not allowed to have the gun pointed at the ground at any time?

Jim Watson · December 23, 2006, 10:00 PM

I will not permit you to make a draw that has the gun out of the holster while you are still facing me (as S.O.) no matter it is pointing at the ground or whereever. If you are turned away, you can go right after your pectoral.

HSMITH · December 23, 2006, 10:23 PM

USPSA now has a rule that allows a 1 meter circle around the shooter that the bore must point inside of. Don't know if I like it or not. Sweep any part of your body and the day is over, but you CAN draw and then turn within the rules.

Being right handed, and shooting IWB just behind my hip at IDPA events, my bore is probably pointing right at the jewels/legs/feet of the SO on every draw facing downrange. There just isn't any way to clear the holster without doing so, and yet no one has ever said a word about it. I don't know if it would be better to have me pointing the gun at the SO, which is apparently perfectly acceptable using the gear I have, or to have someone pointing the gun at their own feet as they turn.

DanV1317 · December 24, 2006, 12:41 AM

In order to be facing you and draw the gun that would mean drawing the gun first. I'm saying turn and draw at the same time. I wouldn't draw the gun while still facing you , then i'd be losing time because i'd still have to turn. By the time i get the gun out of the holster, i'm already half way turned around. Gun unholstered, half way turned around.

GoSlash27 · December 24, 2006, 10:32 AM

mollow,
So just what did you end up doing? I bet that since it was your first time you were facing downrange long before you even got your hand on the grip. Am I right?

rhino · December 24, 2006, 12:18 PM

HSMITH said:

Quote:

USPSA now has a rule that allows a 1 meter circle around the shooter that the bore must point inside of. Don't know if I like it or not. Sweep any part of your body and the day is over, but you CAN draw and then turn within the rules.

Here is the rule in question:

Quote:

10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor’s feet
during drawing or re-holstering.

It does not imply or say you can draw while facing uprange. It's to account for holsters (like yours) that have a muzzle rearward cant. If you pull your gun from your holster while facing uprange, you're going to get DQd at a USPSA match.

Also, I don't like it, but you can actually sweep your own body during the draw or holstering without a DQ according to the rules. It's not a great idea, but it's not a DQ.

Quote:

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping) other than while drawing from a holster or re-holstering.

HSMITH · December 24, 2006, 01:24 PM

Thanks for the clarification Rhino.

rhino · December 25, 2006, 12:28 AM

No problemo, Sir! I am glad to be of service.

December 21, 2006, 10:38 AM	#1
mollow Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Posts: 43	Classifier Questions It's not clear in the COF instruction sheet for the classifier whether you are drawing your weapon in the strings that have your back facing the targets. Or is the gun starting out already in your hand? Also, on that string, is it best to turn to the right or to the left assuming the shooter (me) is right hand dominant. Or is it just a matter of comfort?

December 21, 2006, 11:04 AM	#3
mollow Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Posts: 43	Classifier is IDPA Yes, I'm sorry, the classifier is for IDPA.

December 21, 2006, 08:36 PM	#6
jac714 Member Join Date: August 18, 2006 Posts: 15	Most people I shoot IDPA with turn then draw for the classifier. I turn into the gun, It allows me to get on target faster. Others turn the other way, it is a matter of choice. __________________ "The 1911 was the design given by God to us through John M. Browning that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and is true now."

December 22, 2006, 08:24 AM	#8
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	Here's how I do it (not necessarily the best way): Step forward with the dominant-side foot pivot on your toes to your weak side I don't reach for the weapon until I am actually pivoting, as the movement helps to get my cover garment out of the way. __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

December 22, 2006, 01:46 PM	#9
HiPowering Along Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2006 Location: PA - Land of taxes, potholes and unfortunately Ed "Gun Grabbin' Fast Eddie" Rendell Posts: 254	You'll also make a friend of the SO if you indicate what direction you're going to turn....just remember the Golden 180 degree rule! __________________ HP'ing Along - - - - - - - - - - - - - *"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."* - One of the greatest sentences ever written into an instrument of democracy.

December 21, 2006, 10:42 AM	#2
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	If it is a USPSA classifier the gun will be holstered. I like to see most people turn around the gun, you would turn to the right if your holster is on the right side. Less chance of the the muzzle of the gun breaking the 180 doing it this way.

December 21, 2006, 01:15 PM	#4
DanV1317 Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2004 Posts: 331	haha, i know i wouldn't want a guy shooting the classifier turned up range with a gun in his hand. If he is a righty and turns to his left, he sweeps EVERYBODY! If you're righty, turn to your right. That way the gun only has to go 90 degrees. If you turn to your left, your gun will be turning 270 degrees. And turn the same way every time you turn. It will become natural after awhile. Practice Practice.

December 21, 2006, 02:24 PM	#5
mollow Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Posts: 43	Yeah, I figured it would be a draw from holster; and the advice about turning around the gun makes perfect sense. Thanks.

December 21, 2006, 09:10 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	On the El Prez and similar, competitors turn into the gun, it puts them on target a smidgen sooner. Tacticians turn to the off side, it keeps the gun farther away from an assailant who might try to grab it as they draw.

December 22, 2006, 08:54 PM	#10
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	Just want to add that the SO should ask which way the shooter is going turn so he and the rest of the squad can move to the safe side.

December 23, 2006, 07:55 AM	#11
DanV1317 Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2004 Posts: 331	If you're draw is correct and you pull the pistol straight up your side to your pectoral muscle, then push straight out, you can start your draw as soon as the buzzer goes off and as soon as you start turning. No need to be turned around before you start your draw. The firearm is still pointing towards the ground if you do it right. In the name of safety though, do it how you feel most comfortable.

December 23, 2006, 05:10 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	We had some guys doing the Sul Technique in which South American SWATs point the gun at the ground and turn around its bore axis to round a corner... supposedly. We explained that this was not permissable, that the gun would actually either be pointed behind the line or at their feet. Therefore I would not allow a draw as described by DanV. I DO, however, get my hand on the gun butt as I turn so all I have to do when I see the end target is to pull it. As do a lot of successful shooters.

December 23, 2006, 05:40 PM	#14
rhino Member Join Date: August 25, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 80	And you sir, are a wise and experienced shooter.

December 23, 2006, 06:55 PM	#15
DanV1317 Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2004 Posts: 331	What's the difference? If i'm turning to the right and i'm right handed, i'm drawing the gun while turning and so therefor i haven't broken the 180 line. Also, if i am drawing the gun and it is pointing downward until the gun comes up to my pectoral muscle, i dont see what's wrong with it...? Are you trying to say the draw is illegal or that i'm not allowed to have the gun pointed at the ground at any time?

December 23, 2006, 10:00 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I will not permit you to make a draw that has the gun out of the holster while you are still facing me (as S.O.) no matter it is pointing at the ground or whereever. If you are turned away, you can go right after your pectoral.

December 23, 2006, 10:23 PM	#17
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	USPSA now has a rule that allows a 1 meter circle around the shooter that the bore must point inside of. Don't know if I like it or not. Sweep any part of your body and the day is over, but you CAN draw and then turn within the rules. Being right handed, and shooting IWB just behind my hip at IDPA events, my bore is probably pointing right at the jewels/legs/feet of the SO on every draw facing downrange. There just isn't any way to clear the holster without doing so, and yet no one has ever said a word about it. I don't know if it would be better to have me pointing the gun at the SO, which is apparently perfectly acceptable using the gear I have, or to have someone pointing the gun at their own feet as they turn.

December 24, 2006, 12:41 AM	#18
DanV1317 Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2004 Posts: 331	In order to be facing you and draw the gun that would mean drawing the gun first. I'm saying turn and draw at the same time. I wouldn't draw the gun while still facing you , then i'd be losing time because i'd still have to turn. By the time i get the gun out of the holster, i'm already half way turned around. Gun unholstered, half way turned around.

December 24, 2006, 10:32 AM	#19
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	mollow, So just what did you end up doing? I bet that since it was your first time you were facing downrange long before you even got your hand on the grip. Am I right? __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

December 24, 2006, 01:24 PM	#21
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	Thanks for the clarification Rhino.

December 25, 2006, 12:28 AM	#22
rhino Member Join Date: August 25, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 80	No problemo, Sir! I am glad to be of service.