July 3, 2014, 02:29 PM | #1 |
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lead cast in ar15
whos doing it? what mold are you using? what lube/coating process?
most important, what powders and velocities? accuracy? i know, lots of questions, just wanna know if its something i want to experiment with, i dont personally know how a 223 would act under sub 2k velocities
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July 3, 2014, 03:05 PM | #2 |
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I've have this interest also.
My initial thoughts are; 1. Must push with suitable gas flow to function the weapon. 2. Must have a feed-able nose shape. 3. Can't lead, greatly. 4. What kind of accuracy can be expected? What I think (normally just flat wrong or mostly incorrect); 1. With the right bullet coating, I'm thinking 'Powder Coating' here, many/most propellants that product the needed gas can be used. I'm pushing 130 grain coated cast flat base bullets out of a 30-06 at 2645 FPS, I should be able to get the gas to operate an AR/M4. 2. There are so few molds with anything other than round nose configurations. A custom mold that drops something in the 55 to 65 grain weight range and has a nice pointie nose shape would make life a lot simpler. 3. Platted bullets? Powder Coated bullets? One or both should do it. The .223/5.56 is a little more intense, will I have to go with a gas checked design? 4. Here is my problem... Bullet lead is alloyed. Alloy is mixing other lighter weight metals in. Just a little off balance and the accuracy is off more so. How to make a homogenized mix of molten lead? And then cast it. I/we are all so used to the great consistencies of jacketed bullets, will I be able to adjust to 2 inch groups after 1/2 inch groups? The smaller the bullet the greater the effects of that crystal of tin or what ever that is off center. I think it is very do-a-ble. I will get right on it... After I finish with the 30 cals I'm working on. I'm all ears, or eyes in this case. Enjoy, OSOK |
July 3, 2014, 05:27 PM | #3 |
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i know lee used to make the 22 bator mold, i cant find an actual picture of the bullet, but i thought i remember it being 55gr and pointy
powder-coating seems the only vialble option, but even that comes with its own slight weight variances im doing the 300BLK now and it was almost impossible to push lubed lead slow enough to cycle AND not lead, went to PC and its doing great i would just give the 223 a try if i could find a fair priced suitable mold, i was hoping someone had firsthand experience though this guys using a lyman with supposed success, although it looks pretty flat http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=42&t=395886 heres a pic of the BATOR, looks pretty sweet, saw one on auction for a mere 300!!!!!
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My head is bloody, but unbowed Last edited by skizzums; July 3, 2014 at 05:34 PM. |
July 4, 2014, 06:57 AM | #4 |
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I tried a 60 grain pointed bullet mold from Saeco in my AR.
Powder coated them to prevent leading. Had to push them pretty hard to get reliable cycling. Accuracy was awful. Tried the same bullet loaded down to about 1800 fps in my Rem 700 in .223, shoots about 1.1" @ 100 yards. Came to 2 conclusions 1. Those bullets don't like to be pushed fast 2. Those bullets don't like a 1:7 twist
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July 4, 2014, 03:56 PM | #5 |
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go to cast boolits forums or cast bullets forums
Search for ar-15 cast loads and there are pages of loads and tips on alloys, moulds and powders that work for them.
It might save you lots of frustration Let us know how it works for you. |
July 14, 2014, 04:03 PM | #6 |
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Haven't tried the 556 yet but have experimented greatly with a 124gr .277 dia bullet in 6.8spc out of an AR. It hasnt gone well. I've tried Alox and powder coat with and without gas checks. Speeds from 1150fps to 2400fps. Several different powders. It just wasn't working. The upside of that venture is I did develop a sweet sub-sonic load that cycles 100% with a 130 jsp and RL7. I'd never have tried that combo if it hadn't have showed a little promise with the cast load. However the bullet did end up working well in the .270win.
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July 15, 2014, 02:24 AM | #7 |
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I have been trying it. My goal is to never have to buy jacketed again.
I am about 1/2 way through my load development. I keep getting side tracked with new guns to play with. The cast in a 223 AR is a tough nut to crack. Nothing like finding a good cast load out of my 300 Black out AR. That took about two range trips. But it is crackable, Just need to be more patient and tapper your expectations. Your dealing with a semi auto with a fast twist that requires a certain amount of gas pressure to operate the action reliably. Getting a load that will run slow enough to give good accuracy is not hard. Getting a load that will give the gas pressure you need is not hard. Getting both those numbers at the same time Thats the rub. I found you can get a load to work sort of ok out to 50 yards. Trying them at 100 your looking at paper plate accuracy. Optimally your trying to hit a magic window of 2000 fps or less.( depending on twist rate) 1-9 is common. 1-7 twist would be much harder. 1-12 or 14 would be Nirvana if I could find one cheap enough. Spending 4 or 500 on a 1-14 barrel might make the cost savings of switching to lead a moot point. I have a couple decent loads for 50 yards. using 55gr and 60 gr cast. I have a new mold that cast at 75gr. I will spend some quality time with that one this fall. Should be able to slow it down enough to stabilize at 100 yards. Or I may go the other way and cast them very hard and powder coat and zip them real fast and see what happens. Will see.... It can be done, Others have done it and are happy with the results. But this platform follows the rules of each gun being different, That is true here more so than any other platform. I really think an adjustable gas block would help allot. Find a good shooter, then adjust the gas block to get the gas you need. Hmm maybe... Problem is most I see are to tune the gas down. I want to tune the gas up. I may make my own. Last edited by A pause for the COZ; July 15, 2014 at 02:58 AM. |
July 18, 2014, 06:51 AM | #8 |
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The RCBS .22 Cal. rifle mould works very well.
Try to find a Lyman Cast Bullet Manual No.4. Try Midsouth Shooters Supply Or Graf & Son. |
July 20, 2014, 12:44 PM | #9 | ||
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Quote:
Undersized bullets will lead at even modest speeds. You probably need a fatter mold or a bigger sizer die. The powder coat is probably adding enough diameter to prevent gas from blowing by and flame cutting the lead. Quote:
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...old_C225-55-RF |
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July 20, 2014, 01:04 PM | #10 |
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ordered, thanks man, i cant believe how much people are auctioning them off for
they have six-cavs for 30, i just got the two
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July 20, 2014, 01:56 PM | #11 |
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skizzums,
When you get the mold, are you going to 'PC' or lube or both? Please report on your progress. I'm more interested in feeding these. With those 12 cal metaplate on the round nose. If they feed well, they would make a good candidate for hollow pointing. Different subject but same subject. My brother is coming in next week and bringing me some 'Crystal Clear Super Durable High Gloss' from PBTP (he goes to the farmers market near them). I follow you on this and other forums and will report how this new stuff works. Enjoy, OSOK |
July 20, 2014, 02:52 PM | #12 |
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cool, thanks, very intrested in the clear
ill let you know how these BATORS feed, i dont the theyll have a problem, i will be strictly powdercoating
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July 20, 2014, 08:12 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
For a good while there were used Lee molds selling for more than in-stock new production. People just love a good panic! |
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July 24, 2014, 02:59 AM | #14 |
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BATOR mold will be here today, i forgot to order a sizing die, and i would also like to do gas checks. can someone tell me the difference btween Al gas-checks and CU checks, and the pros and cons of either. i see the aluminum checks are way cheaper, but will they harm the barrel? are they good enough for mid-range rifle? or should i just stick with the copper and pay the extra ten bucks.
i have never used gas checks. if anyone has any available that would also be nice, could trade lead or brass or powder, whatever. but first things first, need a 224 sizing die, or probably even a .225 thanks again for finding that mold for me, really glad to have it.
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July 24, 2014, 01:56 PM | #15 |
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Fer info on casting, sizing, lubing, and shooting cast lead bullets (or anything else related to poured lead bullets) I always go to Castboolits.com. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...ilitary-Rifles
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July 24, 2014, 07:38 PM | #16 |
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I have not seen a measurable difference in accuracy between Al and Cu gas checks.
.225 would be my starting point. Too small is a worse problem than too fat just as long as they will chamber. How do you plan to lube them? I would imagine .223 requires a pretty good lube. |
July 24, 2014, 09:00 PM | #17 |
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i will be powdercoating, i was really wondering if aluminum could possibly have damaging effects to the barrel at such high speeds, i plan to go 225 if i can readily find a 225 sizing die
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July 25, 2014, 06:04 PM | #18 |
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got the mold, its not pointy like the older BATOR molds, or maybe i just ordered the wrong one, but i dont see it having feeding issue, if a problem arises i could just dremel the feed ramps a little wider on one of my lowers
ill pour some up on sunday and post back
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July 27, 2014, 09:15 PM | #19 |
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I have a little bit to report on this subject.
I recently purchased a new mold. A.C.E. company 5.56 heavy. It is a copy of the Lyman 311299 scaled down to 5.56 mm use. It drops from my mold at 75gr using WW lead. With powder coating and a Gas check it hitting about 77gr. I got this mold last winter, but I have had too many irons in the fire to really get a chance to play with it. Finally got around to an initial testing. My goal was to get a easy to cast, plinking round using cheap alloy and a fast rifle powder. Problem I had with the lighter bullets. 55gr and 65gr is I would run out of gas before I could get the velocity down to a usable level. My Goal was 2000 fps or less. So far this bullet does this. As a matter of fact using 5744 I was able to load down to 11 gr of powder and still get the action to operate. Hitting a low 1375 fps I then worked back up and found a load that gives me the accuracy I was after at the velocity I wanted. This bullet, Powder coated, gas checked and sized .226. Ahead of 14gr of 5744 hit 1928 fps avg with a spread of 31fps. across ten loads. 16inch M4 carbine length gas system. 1 in 9 twist. Good enough for me. Last edited by A pause for the COZ; July 27, 2014 at 09:27 PM. |
July 28, 2014, 10:17 PM | #20 |
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yeah, I think the heavier the better trying to shoot slow, if I have more interest ill look into investing in a good 223 mold like yours. atm I am waiting to pay for some GB's on castboolits so cant part with too much $$ since it could be 2 days or 12 weeks from now
looks like you got a good plinker load there, tempting for sure.
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September 4, 2014, 04:52 PM | #21 | |
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September 7, 2014, 12:50 AM | #22 |
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skizzums,
Here's the good, the bad and the ugly on cast boolits for the AR-15. During the last great hoarding AR fmj bullets were obtainable for me. Thus to shoot I had to take up .223/556 casting. I already cast for 9mm, 38sp, .45acp, 44sp, and .308 for 30-06 and 30/30. I figured that with the reduced velocity obtained with cast vs. fjm's that I needed a heavy boolit- I chose the NOE 70 grain version with a .225" diameter. The boolits dropped at 0.2248-.2255" and at 72 grains with my alloy (Tin-0.43%, Antimony- 2.2%, the rest being lead). Air-cooled BHN hardness was 8, heat-treated and water dropped BHN was 15. I gas checked them with copper checks and sized with a Lee push through die at 0.225". I pan lubed with my own lube concoction which works well for my pistols and rifles- 1part Alox to 1 part candle wax to 2 parts 90wt. gear oil. Next was determining a COAL that would fit the chamber, magazine and cause minimal boolit deformity with chambering. My max COAL that would fit my mags was 2.250". Unfortunately at this COAL there was moderate boolit nose deformity with chambering and I loaded progressively shorter rounds till I got to 2.184" which showed no nose deformity. Note this is for a LMT-CQB AR with 1:7 twist. Next was working up an accurate load. The only powder I could get was IMR-4064. It worked fine but metered slowly in my Dillon 650 or my Rockchucker. You have to make sure your inside-neck is cleaned of debris and lube or the 4064 would bridge across the neck and the backed up powder would spill onto the shell plate. I subsequently found some W-748 which metered well. To prep the cleaned, resized and trimmed and chamfered brass (inside and outside neck) I used a Lyman M-dye to slightly open the case mouth to allow easier seating of the lead boolit. I did not crimp. At velocities above 2000 ft/sec I started to see accuracy fall off. At velocities above 2200 ft/sec the nose of the boolit would twist off the base and two chunks of lead would fly downrange. Thus I kept to velocities of about 2000. Twenty grains of 4064 worked well and accuracy was approximately 2-3MOA using a Leupold 2-8 scope. There was no leading of the barrel, gas tube or bolt. With the reduced velocity I did have problems with the action not-cycling. I installed a Wolf reduced power buffer spring and had no further problems. I put 975 cast lead rounds through my AR before FMJ bullets again became available at a reasonable price ($0.09 each). I have since stopped casting for my AR until the next hoarding. So lead casting and reloading for the AR-15 is quite do-able but is a major labor intensive endeavor compared to loading FMJ's. Good luck. best wishes- oldandslow |
September 7, 2014, 08:57 AM | #23 |
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thanks. I have a a few hundred casted and powder-coated now. waiting on gas-checks and a sizing die. so I should be able to get out and test some probably the weekend after next. the only powders I have are h335, 4064, win748. I will have to look ore at what people are using and try to hunt some powder that will give me a lower velocity with higher pressures to cycle. I have the lee bator mold, but I am going to do some work on it on the mill, attempt to get a pointier bullet, but at the very least will get it t a higher weight, like 65+gr
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September 7, 2014, 10:32 AM | #24 | ||
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Quote:
Pretty much I am getting 90% inside of 3 inches. Pretty good when you consider my front sight covers the target at that range. When I get a flat top upper and a 4 power scope. Pretty sure i could dial in better groups. So far though this bullet is giving me what I was after. The weight and size gives you allot more wiggle room for load development. The 55 and 65 gr bullets I have tried can be made to shoot, but the window is smaller. |
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