Best Assault Rifle In Your Opinion ?

Mike H · March 22, 2000, 05:04 PM

So Guys,

Is it the Steyr AUG, M16A2, Enfield SA80,
AK-74, H&K 53/93/G1/G3 etc etc

If it all came raining down around you which one would you choose ?

------------------
A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H

Jeff White · March 22, 2000, 06:13 PM

M4A1 the final M16 derivitive. Short, light, lethal cartridge.
Jeff

Sea Bass · March 22, 2000, 06:39 PM

I have to agree w/ Jeff. M-16/M-4 variant

6forsure · March 22, 2000, 07:37 PM

The HKs are the only rifles listed. As for carbines, I'd have to go with the AK-74.

blades67 · March 23, 2000, 01:34 AM

Although it's heavier than the M4, I think the HK 33 would be the best Assault rifle. If I need something for MOUT operations I think the HK 33K would be ideal. It can go anywhere an MP5 can go, plus it will hit harder.

George Hill · March 23, 2000, 05:49 AM

HK 91 or a FAL.
M1A is a fine rifle as well.

**4V50 Gary** · March 23, 2000, 09:30 AM

If we're talking intermediate cartridges, I'd rule out anything in the 7.62mm Nato. This would include the beloved M14, G3 and the FN-FAL. For all practical purposes, these are 8-9 plus pounds rifles and the only advantage they enjoy over their bolt action predecessor is that they are semi-automatic. None are effective in full auto since they are far too light to be controllable.

For all practical purposes, our selection is thus narrowed down to the smaller 5.56 mm Nato, 5.45 (?) x 39mm Russian or 7.62 x 39 Russian.

With respects to accuracy, you can't beat the AR family. Gas Impingment means fewer moving parts and less to affect consistent lock-up and less variables for the rifle's harmonics. While the bugs (failure to extract, jamming) have been resolved years ago, the main weakness has yet to be addressed: poor magazine design. The AR's weakness is not in the gun but the flimsy magazine lips which, if abused, dramatically affect the AR's reliability. Compare the standard aluminum AR mag to the HK33 (HK93) magazine which is reinforced or the heavy AK magazine (you can beat someone with an AK mag).

The British L85? A repackaged AR-180 in full auto. There were a lot of problems which includes parts breakage. These should have been solved by now but I've heard some troops still don't trust it.

Reliability wise, the AK is unstoppable. Mud, sand, dirt does not deter an AK from chugging along. It does suffer from a tell tale "clack" when the safety is moved.

HK-36? I've fired it. Nifty sighting system, easy to handle either left handed or right handed.

Sorry to wimp out but I gotta think about this some more.

Mike H · March 23, 2000, 02:23 PM

Gary,

I think you're getting confused with the awful SA80 series of British assault rifles chambered for the SS109 round, the far superior version of our own lighter version of the 5.56 (M185 ??). This gun is a real lemon and has almost no international sales except where it has been given away, and, I believe returned on one occasion for sure. Personally I have a big liking for the NEW HK53 carbine in 5.56, it's only about 2 inches longer than an MP5 and it's a HK which tends to rule out questions about reliability. One question about the popular as ever M4A1, isn't this the 3 round burst version as with the M16A2 ?, why would you not want to have full auto on a gun that could potentially be used close in, surely when faced with a room full of terrorists all having roast Marine for lunch you're gonna feel pretty stupid being limited to stitching just one at a time.

regards,

------------------
A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H

George Hill · March 24, 2000, 12:45 AM

For a .223 gun?

HK G36 series.

For a rifle we could buy today - right now?
M96.

------------------
"I like the word 'indolence.' It makes my laziness seem classy." -Bern Williams

Eric Blair · March 24, 2000, 10:10 AM

Ummm...
Ya might want to rethink what you wrote.
You contradicted yourself.

"awful SA80 series of British assault rifles"
and
"it's a HK which tends to rule out questions about reliability. "

Please check. http://www.army.mod.uk/army/equip/pe.../main.htm#sa80

The SA80 is an HK rifle. HK is british, same as SW. (Owned)

Eric
All the news that's fit to print... In my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Eric Blair (edited March 24, 2000).]

Harlequin · March 25, 2000, 11:21 AM

well, in mike H's defense, there is a difference in producing a rifle and designing a rifle... and as far as i know the design for the sa80 was done by enfield in the 70's as far as i know (based on their post-ww2 bulpup design) i could be wrong on my previous statement, but i agree on the statement that it is a poor weapon... did a weapon "recognition" program in 97 where we had to learn to operate and disassemble/assemble, amongst others, the sa80... accuracy was ok compared to the other weapons, but dismanteling the thing was a bloody nightmare... i don't think i've seen a "modern" standard issue weapon with so many parts to keep track of...

as for my own favorites, i go for the hk53 or g3...
even though the g3 is heavy compared to an m4, i know the g3 will never fail to feed a round because of a mag the didn't go all the way up, and the g3/hk53 will not start to bleed exess gass past your eyes after a magazine or two of rapid fire as the m4 will (ie in an immediate action drill/peel-off)..

(and no, i don't think you should have to whack the base of the magazine for each fresh insert just to be sure... it takes time, and if you have to change a mag, you probably don't have that much time.. big design flaw in my eyes, just like the number of parts on the sa80)

Mike H · March 25, 2000, 05:33 PM

Eric,

H&K were taken over by Royal Ordnance themselves a division of BAe Systems in March 1991, some 6 years after production of the SA80 began. The Brits renamed their wannabee site in Kings Meadow, Nottingham as Heckler & Koch (UK). It is here that the SA80 is now produced. It has zero links with H&K proper either in terms of design or production, i.e. it is not a H&K product and will never be. To compare it with the likes of the MP5 or G3 must make the Germans wince, hence my comments about reliability of the HK53 versus the SA80 even though they are made by the "same" company.

Regards,

Mike H

James K · March 25, 2000, 11:33 PM

Hi, Mike,

Getting back to the original question, this is a little like asking what is the best SUV. I think you need to ask "best in what respect?"

Accuracy? Durability? Range? Power? Parts availability? Service availability? Weight? Availability of high cap magazines? Cost of ammunition? Availability of ammunition? Likely continued availability of parts, service and ammunition? Possibility of a ban or punitive taxation? Will it be registered on purchase (as in MD)?

All important factors and things to think about.

Jim

**4V50 Gary** · March 26, 2000, 12:20 AM

Having reflected a little more on the issue, I would have to consider the type of troops I would be issuing the firearm to.

In LE, I would prefer the HK36 but were I to find myself in some backwater 3rd world nation, I would opt for the AK74.

Mike H · March 26, 2000, 06:07 AM

Good point guys, I should have been more explicit.

I guess I was thinking more of a gun that would be used by you personally both in an urban and rural environment. This would lead me to choose a carbine sized 5.56mm, but I know others will prefer the heavier 7.62mm. As stated previously I'm a big fan of the new HK53 (fixed stock version) which just has quality stamped all over it, I've actually found one place that will sell this gun to private individuals either in SA or FA versions, but the price would make your bank manager weep.

Regards,

Mike H

Shin-Tao · March 26, 2000, 07:55 PM

I'd pick up a Galil, Valmet, SiG550, or Ruger KAC556.

Eric Blair · March 27, 2000, 09:00 AM

HK vs SA80
Thanks Mike.

Learn something new every day. (Actually tons of new stuff....)

Given your new rules, I'd lean towards the M-4/203 combo.

Small, right caliber, realitivly reliable. Easy to work with.

Eric

blades67 · March 28, 2000, 02:09 AM

If belt-fed weapons are allowed under your rules, I think I'd choose an M249 SAW.

What say you, George?

------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

I hunt, therefore I am.

George Hill · March 28, 2000, 03:14 AM

Oh heck yes the SAW!

Some say they are not reliable - I never had a problem with them...
Then again some say they get lots of probs with the MP5 too - so no gun is THE GOLDEN GUN... BLACK HAWK DOWN mentions a pilots whos MP5K was only single shooting... sounds like it had a busted return spring.

But if your going to go take and hold some ground on alien soil - the SAW is what will let you feel more at ease...

E__WOK · March 28, 2000, 06:27 AM

I don't know if these are considered assault weapons but http://www.leitner-wise.com/lw15_499.html
or http://www.leitner-wise.com/lw782sx24.html

Shin-Tao · March 28, 2000, 12:02 PM

Now if we are crossing over to belt-feds, I would rather quickly snatch up a CETME light MG. It looks like a small MG42 and doesn't foul after a few hundred rounds due to being gas operated. It's 5.56mm like the SAW, but is reputed to be more reliable.

Mike H · March 28, 2000, 01:18 PM

The only rules are that you have to sleep with it, carry it, carry enough ammo for any engagement, clean it and be able to use it in ANY scenario, but I am surprised at the choice of a SAW, just seems a little cumbersome with spare ammo. No arguments about the firepower though.

A supplementary question if I may. I've seen these new rapid acquisition sights on assault carbines, the red dot type that go with MP5's and M4's. Are they all red dot or do some have a kind of aiming reticule, or any magnification and which is reckoned to be the best. I don't feel my choice would be complete unless I had the best sighting system, not much point in having a great weapon if you can't hit diddly with it.

Regards,

Mike H

blades67 · March 28, 2000, 09:30 PM

I have carried the SAW. I have slept with it, carried three 200 round belt boxes (including the one mounted on the weapon) for 18 miles (never let the Lt. navigate), cleaned it, shot it, cleaned it, and cleaned it and carried some more. I am so glad that thing is now in the hands of some other poor grunt!

------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

I hunt, therefore I am.

Shin-Tao · March 29, 2000, 03:27 AM

The British mount a SUSAT on there lack-luster bullpup SA80.

George Hill · March 29, 2000, 03:41 AM

They also eat crumpets with tea...

What the hell is a "crumpet" anyway?

March 22, 2000, 05:04 PM	#1
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	So Guys, Is it the Steyr AUG, M16A2, Enfield SA80, AK-74, H&K 53/93/G1/G3 etc etc If it all came raining down around you which one would you choose ? ------------------ A Person Is Smart But People Are Stupid Mike H

March 22, 2000, 06:13 PM	#2
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	M4A1 the final M16 derivitive. Short, light, lethal cartridge. Jeff

March 22, 2000, 06:39 PM	#3
Sea Bass Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Location: CA Posts: 176	I have to agree w/ Jeff. M-16/M-4 variant

March 22, 2000, 07:37 PM	#4
6forsure Junior member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 216	The HKs are the only rifles listed. As for carbines, I'd have to go with the AK-74.

March 23, 2000, 01:34 AM	#5
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	Although it's heavier than the M4, I think the HK 33 would be the best Assault rifle. If I need something for MOUT operations I think the HK 33K would be ideal. It can go anywhere an MP5 can go, plus it will hit harder.

March 23, 2000, 05:49 AM	#6
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	HK 91 or a FAL. M1A is a fine rifle as well.

March 23, 2000, 09:30 AM	#7
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	If we're talking intermediate cartridges, I'd rule out anything in the 7.62mm Nato. This would include the beloved M14, G3 and the FN-FAL. For all practical purposes, these are 8-9 plus pounds rifles and the only advantage they enjoy over their bolt action predecessor is that they are semi-automatic. None are effective in full auto since they are far too light to be controllable. For all practical purposes, our selection is thus narrowed down to the smaller 5.56 mm Nato, 5.45 (?) x 39mm Russian or 7.62 x 39 Russian. With respects to accuracy, you can't beat the AR family. Gas Impingment means fewer moving parts and less to affect consistent lock-up and less variables for the rifle's harmonics. While the bugs (failure to extract, jamming) have been resolved years ago, the main weakness has yet to be addressed: poor magazine design. The AR's weakness is not in the gun but the flimsy magazine lips which, if abused, dramatically affect the AR's reliability. Compare the standard aluminum AR mag to the HK33 (HK93) magazine which is reinforced or the heavy AK magazine (you can beat someone with an AK mag). The British L85? A repackaged AR-180 in full auto. There were a lot of problems which includes parts breakage. These should have been solved by now but I've heard some troops still don't trust it. Reliability wise, the AK is unstoppable. Mud, sand, dirt does not deter an AK from chugging along. It does suffer from a tell tale "clack" when the safety is moved. HK-36? I've fired it. Nifty sighting system, easy to handle either left handed or right handed. Sorry to wimp out but I gotta think about this some more.

March 23, 2000, 02:23 PM	#8
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	Gary, I think you're getting confused with the awful SA80 series of British assault rifles chambered for the SS109 round, the far superior version of our own lighter version of the 5.56 (M185 ??). This gun is a real lemon and has almost no international sales except where it has been given away, and, I believe returned on one occasion for sure. Personally I have a big liking for the NEW HK53 carbine in 5.56, it's only about 2 inches longer than an MP5 and it's a HK which tends to rule out questions about reliability. One question about the popular as ever M4A1, isn't this the 3 round burst version as with the M16A2 ?, why would you not want to have full auto on a gun that could potentially be used close in, surely when faced with a room full of terrorists all having roast Marine for lunch you're gonna feel pretty stupid being limited to stitching just one at a time. regards, ------------------ A Person Is Smart But People Are Stupid Mike H

March 24, 2000, 12:45 AM	#9
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	For a .223 gun? HK G36 series. For a rifle we could buy today - right now? M96. ------------------ "I like the word 'indolence.' It makes my laziness seem classy." -Bern Williams

March 24, 2000, 10:10 AM	#10
Eric Blair Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 1999 Posts: 101	Ummm... Ya might want to rethink what you wrote. You contradicted yourself. "awful SA80 series of British assault rifles" and "it's a HK which tends to rule out questions about reliability. " Please check. http://www.army.mod.uk/army/equip/pe.../main.htm#sa80 The SA80 is an HK rifle. HK is british, same as SW. (Owned) Eric All the news that's fit to print... In my opinion. [This message has been edited by Eric Blair (edited March 24, 2000).]

March 25, 2000, 11:21 AM	#11
Harlequin Junior Member Join Date: December 26, 1999 Location: Drøbak, Norway Posts: 13	well, in mike H's defense, there is a difference in producing a rifle and designing a rifle... and as far as i know the design for the sa80 was done by enfield in the 70's as far as i know (based on their post-ww2 bulpup design) i could be wrong on my previous statement, but i agree on the statement that it is a poor weapon... did a weapon "recognition" program in 97 where we had to learn to operate and disassemble/assemble, amongst others, the sa80... accuracy was ok compared to the other weapons, but dismanteling the thing was a bloody nightmare... i don't think i've seen a "modern" standard issue weapon with so many parts to keep track of... as for my own favorites, i go for the hk53 or g3... even though the g3 is heavy compared to an m4, i know the g3 will never fail to feed a round because of a mag the didn't go all the way up, and the g3/hk53 will not start to bleed exess gass past your eyes after a magazine or two of rapid fire as the m4 will (ie in an immediate action drill/peel-off).. (and no, i don't think you should have to whack the base of the magazine for each fresh insert just to be sure... it takes time, and if you have to change a mag, you probably don't have that much time.. big design flaw in my eyes, just like the number of parts on the sa80)

March 25, 2000, 05:33 PM	#12
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	Eric, H&K were taken over by Royal Ordnance themselves a division of BAe Systems in March 1991, some 6 years after production of the SA80 began. The Brits renamed their wannabee site in Kings Meadow, Nottingham as Heckler & Koch (UK). It is here that the SA80 is now produced. It has zero links with H&K proper either in terms of design or production, i.e. it is not a H&K product and will never be. To compare it with the likes of the MP5 or G3 must make the Germans wince, hence my comments about reliability of the HK53 versus the SA80 even though they are made by the "same" company. Regards, Mike H

March 25, 2000, 11:33 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Mike, Getting back to the original question, this is a little like asking what is the best SUV. I think you need to ask "best in what respect?" Accuracy? Durability? Range? Power? Parts availability? Service availability? Weight? Availability of high cap magazines? Cost of ammunition? Availability of ammunition? Likely continued availability of parts, service and ammunition? Possibility of a ban or punitive taxation? Will it be registered on purchase (as in MD)? All important factors and things to think about. Jim

March 26, 2000, 12:20 AM	#14
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Having reflected a little more on the issue, I would have to consider the type of troops I would be issuing the firearm to. In LE, I would prefer the HK36 but were I to find myself in some backwater 3rd world nation, I would opt for the AK74.

March 26, 2000, 06:07 AM	#15
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	Good point guys, I should have been more explicit. I guess I was thinking more of a gun that would be used by you personally both in an urban and rural environment. This would lead me to choose a carbine sized 5.56mm, but I know others will prefer the heavier 7.62mm. As stated previously I'm a big fan of the new HK53 (fixed stock version) which just has quality stamped all over it, I've actually found one place that will sell this gun to private individuals either in SA or FA versions, but the price would make your bank manager weep. Regards, Mike H

March 26, 2000, 07:55 PM	#16
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	I'd pick up a Galil, Valmet, SiG550, or Ruger KAC556.

March 27, 2000, 09:00 AM	#17
Eric Blair Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 1999 Posts: 101	HK vs SA80 Thanks Mike. Learn something new every day. (Actually tons of new stuff....) Given your new rules, I'd lean towards the M-4/203 combo. Small, right caliber, realitivly reliable. Easy to work with. Eric

March 28, 2000, 02:09 AM	#18
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	If belt-fed weapons are allowed under your rules, I think I'd choose an M249 SAW. What say you, George? ------------------ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

March 28, 2000, 03:14 AM	#19
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Oh heck yes the SAW! Some say they are not reliable - I never had a problem with them... Then again some say they get lots of probs with the MP5 too - so no gun is THE GOLDEN GUN... BLACK HAWK DOWN mentions a pilots whos MP5K was only single shooting... sounds like it had a busted return spring. But if your going to go take and hold some ground on alien soil - the SAW is what will let you feel more at ease...

March 28, 2000, 06:27 AM	#20
E__WOK Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 1999 Location: KALIFORNIA Posts: 101	I don't know if these are considered assault weapons but http://www.leitner-wise.com/lw15_499.html or http://www.leitner-wise.com/lw782sx24.html

March 28, 2000, 12:02 PM	#21
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	Now if we are crossing over to belt-feds, I would rather quickly snatch up a CETME light MG. It looks like a small MG42 and doesn't foul after a few hundred rounds due to being gas operated. It's 5.56mm like the SAW, but is reputed to be more reliable.

March 28, 2000, 01:18 PM	#22
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	The only rules are that you have to sleep with it, carry it, carry enough ammo for any engagement, clean it and be able to use it in ANY scenario, but I am surprised at the choice of a SAW, just seems a little cumbersome with spare ammo. No arguments about the firepower though. A supplementary question if I may. I've seen these new rapid acquisition sights on assault carbines, the red dot type that go with MP5's and M4's. Are they all red dot or do some have a kind of aiming reticule, or any magnification and which is reckoned to be the best. I don't feel my choice would be complete unless I had the best sighting system, not much point in having a great weapon if you can't hit diddly with it. Regards, Mike H

March 28, 2000, 09:30 PM	#23
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	I have carried the SAW. I have slept with it, carried three 200 round belt boxes (including the one mounted on the weapon) for 18 miles (never let the Lt. navigate), cleaned it, shot it, cleaned it, and cleaned it and carried some more. I am so glad that thing is now in the hands of some other poor grunt! ------------------ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

March 29, 2000, 03:27 AM	#24
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	The British mount a SUSAT on there lack-luster bullpup SA80.

March 29, 2000, 03:41 AM	#25
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	They also eat crumpets with tea... What the hell is a "crumpet" anyway?