Norwegian Police Markings Post WW2

[JSsmallcal]

Have acquired a Walther Model 4, 1923 manufacture, with a property number stamp and another stamp on the slide marked "POLITI (seal) Nr. XXXX". By "seal" I mean a small stamped coat of arms, resembling the Norwegian Police insignia. POLITI is Norwegian language for police.

I have been informed that these stamps were added after the war by the Norwegians taking back their police departments from the German occupiers. This also occurred, I am told in Denmark.

I am hopeful someone has more information on these markings. Is there a way to determine what city was involved? Can the property numbers be traced?

[gyvel]

"Politi" marked guns are fascinating field. While it's probable that some of them were "former property" of German soldiers in Norway, from what I have read, most of them were reparations from Germany itself.

Over the years, I have seen Walther PPs, Dreyse .32s, CZ 27s (one in my collection), Mauser HSc's, Mauser 1914 and 1934s, Sauer 38H's, an Ortgies, a Beretta 1935 and a few others. Your Walther Model 4 is new to me, and can be added to the list. All were .32 ACPs.

Other than personal observation and a few comments from other collectors, I don't know a whole lot about them.

Not sure about the Danish stuff. What Danish guns I have seen are marked "Rplt" (“Rigspoliti”).

[James K]

While war stories are more interesting, it needs to be noted that Walther sold its pistols all over Europe between wars and the police and security forces of many nations were armed with Walthers of various models.

Jim

[gyvel]

While war stories are more interesting, it needs to be noted that Walther sold its pistols all over Europe between wars and the police and security forces of many nations were armed with Walthers of various models.

While that's very true, Jim, "Politi" guns are all post WWII and are generally a potpourri of German and occupied country firearms. Some research on Bing even shows a G33/40 that has a "Politi" mark. For this reason, there may be some credence to OPs comment about these being "acquired" from the vanquished German stationed in Norway.

To OP: You might get some better answers on Gunboards.com forums. And three more to add to the list are an Inglis Hi-Power, a Femaru P37 and a Sauer 1913.

[James K]

Given the relatively small number of Norwegian police, the fact that they do not routinely carry guns, and the number, variety and age of guns with the "politi" marking, I wonder if those guns were actually all taken over and used by the Norwegian police. Could the marking mean the gun was registered with the police rather than actually used/carried by police?

Edited to add and correct:

I have been trying to do some more research, and the results are interesting. Yes, the small caliber guns were mostly seized from the Germans after they surrendered in 1945. But it seems that the numbers are misleading. If I understand correctly, a pistol No. 5002 wouldn't mean that at least 5002 guns were taken, but that the gun is the second one in category 5, which might be, say, Mauser HSc. Also some sources say that few of the guns were actually used by the police; most were stored away and not carried or used.

Jim

[gyvel]

Also some sources say that few of the guns were actually used by the police; most were stored away and not carried or used.

That's likely true; Virtually everyone I have seen first hand are in excellent condition.

[JSsmallcal]

James K and Gyvel - Thank you for your effort and information. May I say, since it has become topical, that my pistol is numbered Nr. 6853. It tests my credulity to believe that this means it is 853rd example of a type 6 pistol. I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted the observation.

The pistol is in very good-excellent condition, but someone put red nail polish on the rear sight. Do they have Bubba's in Norway? It may have been in better condition before it made it to the States.

Does anyone know if Dieter Marshall's book deals with Model 4 export sales or with the post war markings?

Gyvel, I will check gunboards.com as you suggest.

[gyvel]

but someone put red nail polish on the rear sight.

You can easily remove that with acetone.

Does anyone know if Dieter Marshall's book deals with Model 4 export sales or with the post war markings?

Since the Model 4 was discontinued in the 1920s or thereabouts, it is most likely that (a) if it was relieved from a defeated occupation soldier, it was a private purchase/carry or (b) it was part of a group of firearms collected from civilians in Germany and sent to Norway as reparations.

[James K]

"... firearms collected from civilians in Germany and sent to Norway as reparations."

Interesting. I was unaware of such a program and thought that confiscated guns not taken by Allied (mainly American) soldiers as souvenirs were destroyed.

Jim

[gyvel]

Jim, you're probably right. I was speculating on item "b" because the Walther Model 4 was not a standard issue gun in WWII. Both my father and a very good late friend of mine who fought in the Bulge and Germany said that civilians were ordered to turn in all weapons to the Allies. My late friend who went all the way to Torgau also told me that if a mayor refused to cooperate with the Allies, he was taken away and shot and replaced with another individual who was cooperative. (Apparently he witnessed this first hand. My father only made it as far as Cologne.)

Far more likely it was a private purchase by a German and was "relieved" from him when hostilities ceased.

In fact, given the eclectic selection of guns marked "Politi," it is probably most likely that these were confiscated from occupying Germans.

The one that surprised me the most was the Inglis Hi-Power.

[James K]

Most of us who support Second Amendment rights hate to think that American soldiers entered German homes and seized privately owned guns, or ordered private sporting arms surrendered to be destroyed, but they did. When your country is invaded, that is what happens.

Some returning GIs told their families pretty unlikely stories to pretend that the souvenir gun was a battle capture. (Does anyone really think that German soldiers, even in last ditch fighting, were using falling block target rifles, or that all those high grade shotguns were really owned by Hermann Göring?)

I also wonder if all those guns came from Germans. I suspect a lot were taken from Norwegian collaborators and forces raised by Quisling, possibly even from Norwegian police, most of whom continued to work willingly enough under German control. I doubt they were allowed to continue in law enforcement after the German surrender.

And today Norway has some pretty rigid gun control laws, so perhaps some of those guns were confiscated from Norwegian citizens. Remember that with the exception of a government arsenal, Norway has no significant civilian arms production; most of their sporting and self defense arms are imported, in the pre-war period mainly from Germany. Some of those also might well have been seized for whatever reason.

Jim

[gyvel]

Some returning GIs told their families pretty unlikely stories to pretend that the souvenir gun was a battle capture.

They're not all unlikely. I know a guy whose father brought back Erwin Rommel's Glock 17.

[James K]

Just goes to show how those stories get distorted. Rommel never owned a Glock. I know because my cousin brought back his SIG 226.

Jim

[gyvel]

Just goes to show how those stories get distorted. Rommel never owned a Glock. I know because my cousin brought back his SIG 226.

Jim

LMAO!!!

[kilimanjaro]

You guys swallowed that guff,eh? If I didn't have Rommel's personal Luger, I'd think better of you.

He must have had about a dozen of them, though. Rather common, it seems.

[gyvel]

Getting back to the original subject, the more I think about it and based on what I have observed over the years, it is starting to make more sense that the "Politi" marked guns were confiscated from German occupying troops.

There's just too many different kinds of guns to explain a dedicated reparations program.

Whether they were confiscated from collaborators or from Vidkun Quisling's gang will have to be researched by a Norwegian, I guess. As far as the police cooperating with the Germans, although the Norwegians weren't particularly pleased with being occupied, there existed (at first) somewhat of a grudging bond with the Germans as fellow Germanic/Nordic people. (This was told to me by an elderly Danish gent I know who lived through the occupation.) Of course, as the war progressed, that attitude changed.

[James K]

There is quite a lot on the net about that part of Norwegian history, much of it (thank goodness) in English, which is near a second language in Norway and Denmark. I don't like to come down hard on people who "collaborated" simply by continuing to do their jobs under enemy occupation. Experience has taught that only a few people in that condition will actually fight, especially when reprisals will be swift and severe. (Some folks think they would resist, but how many would if they knew that for every enemy killed, a hundred or a thousand of their countrymen and women would die?)

(FWIW, it is that reluctance to fight that made nonsense of the idea behind the "Liberator" pistol. It was much more effective to provide real weapons to those forces already fighting than to litter the countryside with junk guns hoping that some would be picked up and used against the enemy.)

Jim