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Old March 20, 2006, 08:28 PM   #51
AirForceShooter
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FireBreather:
if I draw it I'm going to fire it.
If you don't, where was your "Fear"?
In 40 years drew twice, fired twice.
not including combat.

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Old March 21, 2006, 11:56 AM   #52
FireBreather01
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Quote:
FireBreather:
if I draw it I'm going to fire it.
If you don't, where was your "Fear"?
In 40 years drew twice, fired twice.
not including combat.
Your fear/concern is what causes you to draw in the first place. What if the threat ends by the time you come to full presentation? The BG drops his knife and raises his arms when he saw you go for your gun, or he turns and walks away from you as he is unarmed and was intending to out-muscle you for your wallet/car/whatever, or you hear glass breaking in your empty house late at night and, with gun drawn as you come around the corner from your bedroom - you find it's your son/daughter/wife that returned unexpectedly and they just dropped a glass, or you're in a hotel and although you thought you had locked the deadbolt - the hotel's maintenance guy mistakenly enters your room to fix a light on his work order and due to your surprise you've drawn and faced what you think is a room-invasion, or you're in a parking garage late at night, alone, and suddenly two guys appear out of 'nowhere' from in front and behind you and ask you, forcefully, for some money - feeling surrounded you draw your gun and again, seeing your draw, they turn and run, or or or.....???

Your reasoning, although it seems to have worked out thus far, is leading you to an eventual path of being either dead or in prison. If you only draw when you KNOW you're going to shoot, you've lost a critical edge in response time -while you're waiting to fully assess a threat and deciding whether or not to shoot BEFORE you draw - I've got my gun out and either at low ready or pointed at the threat, ready to respond in case I MUST. OR, as the above scenarios show, you've drawn on what is now an ended, or empty threat, if you will, - and the witnesses will say that "I saw the two guys in the sweatshirts kind of surround the AirForce guy but as soon as he reached behind his hip the two guys ran, then the AF guy just shot the one in the red sweatshirt - in the back!". Or, "yeah, that sweatshirt guy had a knife but he dropped it when the AF guy reached behind his back and then the AF guy just shot him - the sweatshirt guy even had his arms up".

It all comes down to the progression of force vs threat level - just because you determined a threat once existed does not give you a free-shoot card 5 seconds later, it must be immediate. If the threat has ended, so does your force.
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Old March 22, 2006, 06:57 PM   #53
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I would not necessarily shoot if I did draw, but I would not draw unless I intended to fire. In other words, If the situation doesn't warrant firing the gun in the first place don't pull it out. Once I do draw the gun, it's up to the BG. If he stays his course, he will most likely die. But I would more than welcome his retreat. I believe this was more along the lines of what AirForceShooter meant? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I thought.
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Old March 22, 2006, 08:39 PM   #54
AirForceShooter
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in both cases the BG never stopped they're threats or actions .
Bigfats understands my position.
I draw I fire.
No trainer will tell you different.
I never threaten or warn. None of that "if you don't stop I'll shoot you I'm armed"
My position will lead me to being dead or prision??
That I certainly don't get.

AFS
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Old March 22, 2006, 09:30 PM   #55
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"What if the threat ends by the time you come to full presentation? "

Pretty damn fast to have the situation evaporate in about 1.5 seconds.
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Old March 22, 2006, 10:54 PM   #56
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Quote:
What if the threat ends by the time you come to full presentation?
Then you need to practice your draw.

Previous posters summed it up well - if you make the decision to draw, you should have already made the decision to fire.

But still, 98% of firearm self-defense incidents end without any shots fired, I seem to recall reading somewhere.
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Old March 23, 2006, 12:43 PM   #57
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There seems to be a reluctance being displayed that is "I don't want to shoot".
The senario keeps changing to finding a way not to shoot.
What if: the BG throws his hands up, what if he stops, what if he drops dead of a heart attack.
If you're CCWing and presented with a shooting senario, once you draw there's no going back. You have less than a second to deceide. That's not much. You're protecting your life, of your spouses or your kids. Think I give a hoot about the BG?
That "what if" just might get you killed or injured.
Sorry if I offended but it's my opinion and experience.

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Old March 23, 2006, 08:55 PM   #58
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I agree with Air Force Shooter.
Buy the time the weapon is out, the shooting will occur as a trained response.

As non police in a non-combat situation, you are likely going to have to make a very fast decision and hesitation at that point will be very dangerous.
If you are not in enough danger to have already decided deadly force is required, you do not have any reason to draw in the first place.

Unlike the police who may threaten to fire, for a CCW person the crime is called ‘brandishing’. You displayed a weapon with the intent of causing fear.
The police have detailed rules governing when they can draw. Having some idea of them is a good idea.

Once you have made the decision that deadly force will be required for the problem at hand, it should be employed as quickly as possible.
You do not want to get into a wrestling match with someone with a loaded weapon in your hands (or even on your body).

When I draw a gun from a holster I am wearing, it requires thought to not immediately flip the safety off.
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Old March 25, 2006, 08:57 PM   #59
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I agreee whole-heartedly AirForceShooter. After the gun is drawn or during the draw is no time to be thinking about what to do about the guy (or girl), I will have already decided that.
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Old March 25, 2006, 10:33 PM   #60
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LEO gets some relief since you can draw and not be immediatley charged with brandishing. You get to fill out a report.
Any non LEO who display a gun in a threatening manner can be charged with brandishing in most jurisdiction. All you need is a PITA anti-gun DA who wants to make mileage on your hide.
It forces you to wait until the situation is relaly [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] before drawing, and by then there will be no question as to the outcome.
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Old March 26, 2006, 03:55 AM   #61
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Quote:
Any non LEO who display a gun in a threatening manner can be charged with brandishing in most jurisdiction.
It depends on what we call the "A" word--Articulation.

You must be able to articulate that: the threat was of sufficient severity to warrant the use of deadly force; that the threat was imminent; that the assailant had demonstrated the willingness to use deadly force against you, and (possibly most importantly) that the assailant was in the position to carry out the threat. In short, a "reasonable person" would believe, under the same circumstances that they were in danger of death or serious bodily harm.
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Old March 26, 2006, 09:17 AM   #62
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And if you can articulate the threat as reaching the level to let you draw, you have reached the level of use.
As a non-LEO it is not my job to offer one more chance to stop already established threats of 'death or grave bodily harm' and the ability to use same.
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Old March 26, 2006, 09:31 AM   #63
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That's what I meant, but you said it better, I believe.

What I meant (to elaborate a bit) is that if you are drawing your weapon for use under those circumstances, the chance of being charged with brandishing is actually quite low to non-existent--at least, in most States.
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Old March 26, 2006, 10:03 AM   #64
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From my training, if you are convinced the BG is going to harm or kill you,
that is reason enough to draw and fire. You are under no obligation to yell stop, or reason with the sucker, he has already made the threat and can pay the consequences.

I am sure though that the DA will ask you later if you felt the BG was going to harm you, and did you feal fearful for your life. Better have the right answer.

However, if the threat is removed, better not shoot. IOW if the BG decides to run, don't shoot him in the back. Don't shoot a robber running from your house or driving off in his car.

Each situation will be a little different and it is hard to draw a blanket conclusion. For sure the mere presence of a gun has many times calmed down the situation. I think I would probably draw and see if that changed the BG's mind before I fired, if I felt like there was time. Of course I am sitting here calmly at the keyboard, and who knows how I would feel when I suddenly realized, "Geeze that BOZO is going to kill me?" I have a feeling one would just react to save his own life and never give thought about any resulting charges.

A leo I know told me, "If you are going to carry you better decide NOW that you are going to shoot. If you can't do that, don't carry! "

I have never felt the need to use a gun for defense.

Last edited by jamaica; March 26, 2006 at 05:58 PM.
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Old March 26, 2006, 10:41 AM   #65
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Only been carrying for a few years but havn't had to unholster, did reach 1 time when I was out with family at campground. Van with some guys kept driving by ,where my parents were taking down camp, and looking at parents. When Dad would make eye contact the van would speed up and then come back around. Did this about 4 times before Dad came to lake side to let me Know what was going on. Just as I got to the table the van showed up again. I had hand on 1911 on the side facing away from van. Had longer flannel shirt on. I asked the guy on the passenger side of the van if he needed something or if they were waiting for our spot. No answer told them we were leaving in about 20 min and the site would be open if they wanted it. No answer just a weird look and they drove off.
Dad said it looked like I was scratching my side when I asked if he could tell that I had my hand on the 1911. Him being LEO for 23 yrs and now ret.
We left but did not see the van anywhere on the way out and we were the only ones in the campground at the time all other sites were empty.
Sad thing is in the campground because it is national forrest you can't have the gun loaded or even have full clip in gun. Thought about that afterwards and thought how much time it would have taken to dump empty clip and lock and load new clip and round. Been practicing that now for when we do go back to the campground. Any hints on that situation?
Did notify PD about incident. No plate to give ad it was so dirty couldn't read it but did get good look at passenger.
If it would have happened during set up we would have broken camp and left.
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Old March 26, 2006, 06:20 PM   #66
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Been carrying since 1979. My wife (girlfriend at the time) and I were walking her dog, a deaf dalmation,when we were confronted with a not too happy german shepard. The dog was not leashed and was giving us a pretty good display. To make matters worse , being deaf , the dalmation totally ignored the shepards aggressive behavior. I positioned myself between the shepard and my wife , gripped my .45 and stood at a quartering angle to the approaching dog. I shouted "no" at the dog , but it didn't even make it hesitate. I drew my wepon ,
and shouted again. That dog stopped like someone stepped on his leash, growled and stood there looking at us. It was like he knew something was up , but he wasn't quite sure what. My wife kept walking and it all stopped as quick as it started. The sad part is that IF I had fired a shot to protect myself or my wife , I would have more than likely had my permit suspended or revoked for discharging a firearm within the town limits (residential neighborhood).
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Old March 27, 2006, 01:47 PM   #67
FireBreather01
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Quote:
Pretty damn fast to have the situation evaporate in about 1.5 seconds.
And yet, we comment endlessy on the Tueller Drill, whereby a threat can close in 1.5 seconds.

Quote:
Then you need to practice your draw.
Right, because we're all such accomplished 'quick-draw' artists that we will have vanquished our opponents before they know what hit them - in spite of covering garments, people in the area like a child at your side, being momentarily surprised, whatever - it's not a perfect world my friends where we're instantaneously ready for everything and anything, no matter what your situational readiness is.

Quote:
There seems to be a reluctance being displayed that is "I don't want to shoot".
Well, I'd rather not! But I will, and have no hesitation, if I have to.

Quote:
Unlike the police who may threaten to fire, for a CCW person the crime is called ‘brandishing’.
Not if you're in fear for your life or another's.


Quote:
However, if the threat is removed, better not shoot. IOW if the BG decides to run, don't shoot him in the back. Don't shoot a robber running from your house or driving off in his car. Each situation will be a little different and it is hard to draw a blanket conclusion. For sure the mere presence of a gun has many times calmed down the situation. I think I would probably draw and see if that changed the BG's mind before I fired, if I felt like there was time.
Exactly! That's all I was saying - while it may be necessary to shoot immedialtely upon full presentation, the threat may have evaporated as well, I simply disagree with the dictum of 'if draw, then shoot' for me it's, 'if draw, I'm ready and willing to shoot, if it's still necessary'.

And, AFS, I mean no disrespect to your experiences, they obviously worked and you're still here - chalk one (two!) up for the good guy! I just don't want to see any of our armed bretheren get into trouble by going beyond 'reasonable and prudent'. By choosing to carry, we're under a microscope and we must be able to clearly articulate, and present evidence of, a threat that caused us to draw and/or shoot if such a situation should ever arise. I strongly believe that I cannot merely say that I was in fear of my life and therefore had to draw and shoot - without regard to what happened in the interval between the draw and shot, too many variables. Drawing-and-shooting are not one act, they are two separate acts, each with their own reasoning.
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Old March 27, 2006, 03:10 PM   #68
AirForceShooter
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no problem at all.
I really do respect your opinion.
One thing I may have left out is that I don't draw until i'm prepared to shoot.
I just may be the last guy to present his weapon.

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Old March 27, 2006, 03:54 PM   #69
FirstFreedom
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CCW'ing 9.5 years.

Zero Draws.

Renders remaining questions moot.



Do not draw unless your in fear for your life or serious bodily injury, AND your fear is both reasonable, and of imminent harm.
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Old March 27, 2006, 05:09 PM   #70
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Had CWP for years, believe in one Moto "FEET DON'T FAIL ME NOW"!!!!
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Old March 29, 2006, 11:35 AM   #71
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Self defense fallacies

From reading some of these posts, it seems the general idea is that once a person is scared, then that justifies them to draw their weapon and deal with the cause of their fear. I am writing this post to impress upon you that in addition to fear, there must be three or sometimes four things that must be present.

The first is oportunity. If the cause of your fear has the means of killing or maiming you, then he/she has satisfied that requirement.

The second is threat. Some call it manifest intent. This means that there should be an actual threat againts you, wheter verbal or in action.

The third is ability. As is implied, the threat must be able to cause grave bodily harm.

Some states require the fourth, which is retreat or preclusion.

The first three items must be present together before you can use deadly force. For example an unhappy boyfriend armed with a baseball bat at the base of an apartement building yelling threats at his girlfriend on the fith floor balcony, may have the intent and ability to cause harm to the woman, but since he is downstairs, has no opportunity to inflict said harm.

Another example is, a bummy looking character might be seen with a large knive/machete proceding towards a cashier in a store. One might assume he is going to rob the place when infact he is just trying to purchase the tool, to do some gardening at his house. In that case ability and opportunity are present, but there is no threat, even though you get scared. Obviously your situation awareness should cause you to be examine the situation more closely.

A six year old maybe mad at her babysitter and verbally threatens the sitter and attempts to punch her. Such a kid has the opportunity and intent, but does not have the ability to do the harm that she wants.

These are just a few examples that may not warrant a deadly force defense. I am a minority, and during the week I am usually dressed buisnes casually. But during the weekends, I do alot of handi-man type work. I usually go to the hardware store alot. Sometimes I see ladies trying to carry heavy tools or materials. I wish I could help them, but I am more scared that they would think that I am trying to rob them, than help them. I know its sad, but I rather watch them struggle, than try to be a good Samaritan and end up a holey mess.

Now, I will say that, if these 3 tests are met, and you draw your weapon, if these conditions remain after you draw, then you have every right to shoot. If you are in those states that require you to run, then you must attempt to retreat before you shoot, IF YOU CAN DO IT SAFELY.

Be safe y'all.
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Old March 29, 2006, 02:41 PM   #72
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nug_38 - nice post
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Old April 1, 2006, 12:01 PM   #73
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Nug_38; that was masterful.

But, sadly, some kids in Lancaster proved you wrong....
Quote:
A six year old maybe mad at her babysitter and verbally threatens the sitter and attempts to punch her. Such a kid has the opportunity and intent, but does not have the ability to do the harm that she wants.
7 year was shot on a school bus yesterday.
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Old April 2, 2006, 02:51 AM   #74
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CCw for about 11 years. drawn more than a few times. only presented a couple of more times. I manage property, sometimes people try to take the rent money. only brought it to bear twice.

Most of the times I have drawn it has been winter and I feel I need to have it more ready than under a coat and a pullover. Unseen voices in the hall way. lights out that should be on. That sort of thing, I pull it out and either carry against my leg or tuck it under the open coat. Sometimes shield it with the clip board.

Have just let it be shown to squash some kids Ideas that talking about ripping off the man are not wise topics.

Presented it once to three brothers who were living without permission (lease was for their mom and younger daughter not them) They were given notice of intent to evict.
My mistake was to make their stop my first, gave them time to sulk and get pumped up. I should have collected the building and then stopped at their door. But I came down the stairs and the light was out. I back tracked and called 911 and spoke loudly to the operator why I was calling and let her know i had a gun. I turned around and saw the oldest two were coming up the far stairs and one had a pipe/club in his hands. Bacled up to the door of one of the good tenants and kicked on her door with my heel and she opened up and I backed in with my gun out and phone in my ear. Slammed the door and waited for the cops, they beat on the door and told me i was a Pu**Y for hiding in a womans Apt. I told her I was sorry but they would be going to jail today. cops showed up in force took them all away. surprise the older two both had outstanding warrants in three states.

Mom was hauled too for harboring wanted fugitive, turned out she had warrants too. We petitioned for and got alternative eviction, meaning no waiting period. they were moved out in one day.

I was not looking to shoot, but I was of the mindset If they get in the door before the cops show. I shoot.
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Old April 2, 2006, 04:04 AM   #75
cliffjr83
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CCW tips

I have a ccw and I live in Arizona. I DO NOT carry it concealed!!! What is the point of having a concealed weapon? Can anyone answer me that? I carry mine on my hip and in plain view for all to see. I have NEVER had to pull it out of my holster!!! I have been at gas stations late at night filling up the car and have been eyeballed by a bunch of gangbangers. The second I got out of my car and they saw my 1911-A1 Cocked and Locked they moved on in a hurry!!!

When I went through my course the NRA instructor told us to carry it in plain view. If you do get in a situation where you need to get to your pistol fast, it better be on your hip with one in the chamber!!! You should take defensive pistol courses from NRA Certified Instructors and you should practice pulling it out of the holster on a regular basis. God forbid you should ever have to actually go for your gun. But, if you do you better be prepared to KILL!!! Carry your sidearm with the best defensive deadly ammunition you can buy! I personally call them "hang nasties".

If you have to pull out your piece and point it at a person, DO NOT HESITATE to pull the trigger!!!!

An armed society is a polite society!!!

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