40-65 WCF... 40-70 SS anyone play ???

Magnum Wheel Man · August 17, 2009, 11:59 AM

I'm doing a lower pressure double rifle project ( was planning on 557 Snider, but keep getting frustrated with complications )...

... so I started looking at something smaller ( also reads cheaper

to do )

I have a 50-70 single shot, so thats an option, I already have a double rifle in 45-70 so that is not an option for the new project...

I started reading up on BPC Silohuette shooting & learned an awefull lot about the 40-65 WCF & 40-70 Sharps Straight... for shooting distances up to 500 meters... I'm not interested in 500 meter shots with a double rifle, but I would like to maximize my hunting potential out of the gun, & there seems to be more 40-65 smokeless reciepes out there...

components & build materials seem to be easily available...anyone shoot shoot either of these & care to offfer opinions???

longranger · August 28, 2009, 09:07 AM

MWM,

I have both the 40-65 WCF and 40-70 Sharps Straight. The 40-65 WCF is by far the easier and cheaper cartridge to load.Both have excellant accuracy with the 40-70 SS having larger case capacity.Recoil is about the same given the same bullet weights and same powder charge.40-70 SS has the disadvantage of needing expensive brass unless the chamber is cut to accept .405 Win.brass which really makes it a .405 Win.
40-65 WCF can be made from 45-70 brass.
My favorite rifle to load and shoot is my Shilo Sharps in 40-70 SS,I only shoot black powder in it and will shoot a group of 5 you can cover with your hand @ 500 M.
Lots of published smokeless loads for the 40-65 WCF not so with the 40-70 SS.

Magnum Wheel Man · August 28, 2009, 09:21 AM

I was beginning to think these were more obscure than I thought...

as a double rifle, I'm looking at only smokeless so the slightly smaller case of the 40-65 is fine, the 40-65 components seem to be cheaper, in fact I've about made my mind up to do the rifle in 40-65... I reciently bought 20 correct headstamp Starline cases & like the fact that the barrels are normally faster twist than the 45-70 barrels, so I can shoot bullets of equal weight, but better sectional density & balistic coefficient ( though the latter is not too important if 150 yards would be the max sight in distance... I'm thinking 3 leaf safari sights with one leaf for 50 yards, one leaf for 100 yards, & the 3rd leaf for 150 yards...

care to talk about bullets you are using ???

Buck Conner · August 28, 2009, 01:46 PM

Take a look at 40-70 2-1/10 BN Sharps here's a cheap shooter that will outperform the 45/70.

The big plus is you use 45/70 brass bottled necked to .400 caliber, RCSB makes the dies and the forming die. Barnes, Hornady and a few others make bullets or RCBS, Lyman and Lee make molds. If you use a dupilex load and 400 grain bullets it runs pretty good for long shots.

At the end of the buffalo days Sharps, Remington, Ballard and Winchester started using the smaller caliber bullet like the 40's to reach out further. The buffalo had become aware of getting to close to humans was dangerious, as usual we screwed up another good thing.

longranger · August 28, 2009, 08:07 PM

MWM.

The bullets I have used are 410gr from the Lyman Snover mould with 20:1 melt. 400gr. Paul Jones Creedmoor both drop @.410 dia. I am currently playing with a Steve Brooks Nose Pour adjustable paper patch mould @ .395 dia. patched to .400.
When I first started with the .408 dia. bores I used 215 gr. .41 Rem Mag hard cast pistol bullets and could get 2-3" groups with black powder.Better results could be had with smokeless powder.Most of the twist rates for the 40-65 WCF lend themselves to the heavier bullets.Original 40-70 SS bullets were 330gr. Paper Patched. I think something in the range of 330-400gr. hard cast bullet should do well.I knew a fella in CA that shot a rechambered Ruger #1 in 40-65 WCF cast bullets and smokeless and could shoot darn near one hole groups.Hard to beat cast bullets in these calibers for accuracy.
When you get ready send me a P.M. with a shipping address I could send you some of the 410 gr bullets from the Snover and Jones mold to try.I do not use smokeless lube so I would not lube them.You would have to lube them with an aproppriate smokless lube. I could cast them hard enough for smokeless.

longranger · August 28, 2009, 08:46 PM

Buck Connors,

You have a couple of things mixed up, the 40-70 SBN has case length of 2.25" not 2.10" and 45 basic brass must be used to make cases as well as custom trim dies.
The 40-70 Gov. has a case length of 2.10" and can be made from 45-70 brass and was the invention of Don Phariss a custom gunsmith for Shilo Sharps.I know of no one using it.
The 40-70 SBN in no way will out perform the venerable 45-70, if it did it would be more popular than the 45-70. Who chambers in this caliber? just handful of custom gunmakers like Shilo,Ballard,Axtell and few others.It is a very difficult cartridge to get to shoot well with black powder.It is way down on the popularity list for BPCR shooting.Have not seen it in the winners circle at any of the BPCR matches.
The 40's were not made because the buffalo were getting skittish, the 45-90,100,110,120 were the need of the day.Those cartridges are far more popular than the 40-70 SBN.
The 44-77 was the most popular chambering from the original Sharps Co. offered with the 40-90 SBN being the most popular with the buffalo hunters in .40 cal.

Jim Watson · August 28, 2009, 09:08 PM

The ORIGINAL .40-65 was meant for the 1886 lever action and was loaded with a 260 grain bullet at as high a velocity as black could drive it.

Current use of the .40-65 in single shots with bullets of 400+ grains is for silhouette and midrange shooting with readily available brass, not an authentic reproduction of a period outfit. It is only fairly recently that you could get .40-70 Sharps brass or get close with .405 brass.

I would say that chambering a double rifle for .40-65 would be an approximation of the old British .450/400 2 3/8" BPE or Nitro for Black with common American brass. It fired a 230 or 270 grain bullet at somewhat higher velocity than .40-65.

But you are going to have to decide up front whether to go with light or heavy bullets, a double will have to be regulated for a specific load.

Buck Conner · August 29, 2009, 10:00 AM

Longranger,

Quote:

I know of no one using it. The 40-70 SBN in no way will out perform the venerable 45-70, if it did it would be more popular than the 45-70. Who chambers in this caliber? just handful of custom gunmakers like Shilo, Ballard, Axtell and few others. It is a very difficult cartridge to get to shoot well with black powder. It is way down on the popularity list for BPCR shooting. Have not seen it in the winners circle at any of the BPCR matches.

Here in the west you'll see a min. of a dozen rifles chambered in this caliber at different events. RCBS and Shilo advertise the 40/70 2-1/10 for those wanting to shoot the cheaper 45/70 brass, that's why I mentioned it. I have killed 2000 lb. buffalo bulls out to 300 yards with this caliber and watched several others do the same on elk. Was one of the 1st dealers in Denver along with a friend in Ft. Collins for Shilo in the early years.

It's really not a hard cartridge to load per a good friend Ron Long (he's won many BPCR matches around here with his original and reproduction Ballards and Winchester Hi Walls as I'm sure you know being from WY). He developed loads for users of this cartridge as well as made custom bullet molds for those shooting it.

Ron and Steve where the builders of the Ballard Rifles a few years ago. Long use to make flintlocks, percussion locks and misc. parts for muzzleloaders for those that don't know the name. When still shooting in muzzleloading events in the 70's to 90's he went with the USA Team to Japan and brought home several metals one being the Gold in Muzzleloading. Then switched to BPCR events and won the first engraved Sharps that Shilo had for its top prize. He brought that gun home looked it over said he could build one better and sold it.

August 28, 2009, 09:21 AM	#3
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Thanks for the reply... I was beginning to think these were more obscure than I thought... as a double rifle, I'm looking at only smokeless so the slightly smaller case of the 40-65 is fine, the 40-65 components seem to be cheaper, in fact I've about made my mind up to do the rifle in 40-65... I reciently bought 20 correct headstamp Starline cases & like the fact that the barrels are normally faster twist than the 45-70 barrels, so I can shoot bullets of equal weight, but better sectional density & balistic coefficient ( though the latter is not too important if 150 yards would be the max sight in distance... I'm thinking 3 leaf safari sights with one leaf for 50 yards, one leaf for 100 yards, & the 3rd leaf for 150 yards... care to talk about bullets you are using ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

August 28, 2009, 01:46 PM	#4
Buck Conner Member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Location: Lehi, Utah Posts: 50	Take a look at 40-70 2-1/10 BN Sharps here's a cheap shooter that will outperform the 45/70. The big plus is you use 45/70 brass bottled necked to .400 caliber, RCSB makes the dies and the forming die. Barnes, Hornady and a few others make bullets or RCBS, Lyman and Lee make molds. If you use a dupilex load and 400 grain bullets it runs pretty good for long shots. At the end of the buffalo days Sharps, Remington, Ballard and Winchester started using the smaller caliber bullet like the 40's to reach out further. The buffalo had become aware of getting to close to humans was dangerious, as usual we screwed up another good thing. __________________ Buck Conner NRA & NMLRA Life AMM Hiverano Degree NAF Mountaineer Degree

August 17, 2009, 11:59 AM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	40-65 WCF... 40-70 SS anyone play ??? I'm doing a lower pressure double rifle project ( was planning on 557 Snider, but keep getting frustrated with complications )... ... so I started looking at something smaller ( also reads cheaper to do ) I have a 50-70 single shot, so thats an option, I already have a double rifle in 45-70 so that is not an option for the new project... I started reading up on BPC Silohuette shooting & learned an awefull lot about the 40-65 WCF & 40-70 Sharps Straight... for shooting distances up to 500 meters... I'm not interested in 500 meter shots with a double rifle, but I would like to maximize my hunting potential out of the gun, & there seems to be more 40-65 smokeless reciepes out there... components & build materials seem to be easily available...anyone shoot shoot either of these & care to offfer opinions??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

August 28, 2009, 09:07 AM	#2
longranger Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2008 Location: Buffalo WY Posts: 1,056	MWM, I have both the 40-65 WCF and 40-70 Sharps Straight. The 40-65 WCF is by far the easier and cheaper cartridge to load.Both have excellant accuracy with the 40-70 SS having larger case capacity.Recoil is about the same given the same bullet weights and same powder charge.40-70 SS has the disadvantage of needing expensive brass unless the chamber is cut to accept .405 Win.brass which really makes it a .405 Win. 40-65 WCF can be made from 45-70 brass. My favorite rifle to load and shoot is my Shilo Sharps in 40-70 SS,I only shoot black powder in it and will shoot a group of 5 you can cover with your hand @ 500 M. Lots of published smokeless loads for the 40-65 WCF not so with the 40-70 SS.

August 28, 2009, 08:07 PM	#5
longranger Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2008 Location: Buffalo WY Posts: 1,056	MWM. The bullets I have used are 410gr from the Lyman Snover mould with 20:1 melt. 400gr. Paul Jones Creedmoor both drop @.410 dia. I am currently playing with a Steve Brooks Nose Pour adjustable paper patch mould @ .395 dia. patched to .400. When I first started with the .408 dia. bores I used 215 gr. .41 Rem Mag hard cast pistol bullets and could get 2-3" groups with black powder.Better results could be had with smokeless powder.Most of the twist rates for the 40-65 WCF lend themselves to the heavier bullets.Original 40-70 SS bullets were 330gr. Paper Patched. I think something in the range of 330-400gr. hard cast bullet should do well.I knew a fella in CA that shot a rechambered Ruger #1 in 40-65 WCF cast bullets and smokeless and could shoot darn near one hole groups.Hard to beat cast bullets in these calibers for accuracy. When you get ready send me a P.M. with a shipping address I could send you some of the 410 gr bullets from the Snover and Jones mold to try.I do not use smokeless lube so I would not lube them.You would have to lube them with an aproppriate smokless lube. I could cast them hard enough for smokeless.

August 28, 2009, 08:46 PM	#6
longranger Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2008 Location: Buffalo WY Posts: 1,056	Buck Connors, You have a couple of things mixed up, the 40-70 SBN has case length of 2.25" not 2.10" and 45 basic brass must be used to make cases as well as custom trim dies. The 40-70 Gov. has a case length of 2.10" and can be made from 45-70 brass and was the invention of Don Phariss a custom gunsmith for Shilo Sharps.I know of no one using it. The 40-70 SBN in no way will out perform the venerable 45-70, if it did it would be more popular than the 45-70. Who chambers in this caliber? just handful of custom gunmakers like Shilo,Ballard,Axtell and few others.It is a very difficult cartridge to get to shoot well with black powder.It is way down on the popularity list for BPCR shooting.Have not seen it in the winners circle at any of the BPCR matches. The 40's were not made because the buffalo were getting skittish, the 45-90,100,110,120 were the need of the day.Those cartridges are far more popular than the 40-70 SBN. The 44-77 was the most popular chambering from the original Sharps Co. offered with the 40-90 SBN being the most popular with the buffalo hunters in .40 cal.

August 28, 2009, 09:08 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,546	The ORIGINAL .40-65 was meant for the 1886 lever action and was loaded with a 260 grain bullet at as high a velocity as black could drive it. Current use of the .40-65 in single shots with bullets of 400+ grains is for silhouette and midrange shooting with readily available brass, not an authentic reproduction of a period outfit. It is only fairly recently that you could get .40-70 Sharps brass or get close with .405 brass. I would say that chambering a double rifle for .40-65 would be an approximation of the old British .450/400 2 3/8" BPE or Nitro for Black with common American brass. It fired a 230 or 270 grain bullet at somewhat higher velocity than .40-65. But you are going to have to decide up front whether to go with light or heavy bullets, a double will have to be regulated for a specific load.