Wave runner thief shot in head, police probing whether it was justifiable

Marlin009 · May 24, 2011, 08:39 AM

Opened as we have a nice rewrite - Thanks Marlin, Glenn.

This past Saturday afternoon, a man and a woman attempted to steal a wave runner from a waterfront home in Miami. The home was occupied by the owner’s wife and teenage son. They confronted the man as he attempted to lower the wave runner on its lift into the water after he had connected power to the lift with an extension cord.

The police report indicates the man threatened the two, it does not say how.
The teenager shot the man in the head with a shotgun and killed him.

The woman (accomplice) has been charged with 2nd degree murder in his death.

The two had planned to sell the wave runner for $2,000.

I live in Florida and have two boats on lifts. I doubt that I would shoot someone for trying to steal them, although I do not know. Florida law does allow the use of deadly force to protect yourself, or another, or your home from someone who is committing, or trying to commit, a forcible felony. I’m not sure if this situation constitutes a forcible felony. If the man were armed and displayed the weapon, then I believe it would. As of yesterday, no charges had been filed against the mother and son. I hope they don’t, clearly they will have enough to deal with.

People should just leave other peoples property alone. This has been an increasing problem in Florida (boat thefts) in the past few years.

Here is a link to the article in the Miami Herald newspaper.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/2...t-in-head.html

Bartholomew Roberts · May 24, 2011, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Florida law does allow the use of deadly force to protect yourself, or another, or your home from someone who is committing, or trying to commit, a forcible felony. I’m not sure if this situation constitutes a forcible felony

Section 776.08 of Florida law defines Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Section 776.012 appears to be what you were talking about:

Quote:

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

If there was a use of threatened use of violence by the thief, or the theft of the watercraft qualifies as burglarly, then ithe question becomes whether the teen reasonably believed that deadly force was necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a crime.

Crazy88Fingers · May 24, 2011, 01:40 PM

If the bad guy was in the process of committing a felony on their property and threatened them in any way, then I'd say the shooting was justified. But I'm no big city lawyer.

Falcon642 · May 24, 2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

The two had planned to sell the wave runner for $2,000.

When all is said and done, they are going to end up spending alot more on lawyer fees defending themselves than the wave runner was worth.

If they were truly defending themselves, good for them. If they were trying to just stop a theft, they probably actually cost themselves money in the long term.

MLeake · May 24, 2011, 03:02 PM

True, if they get charged.

Otherwise, they are probably out a consultation fee. I think any prudent person would consult an attorney while waiting to see if charges will be filed.

tactidrool · May 24, 2011, 03:33 PM

This is where you go armed with a cell phone camera, snap a picture of them in the act of the theft, and tell them you are calling the police. If they then get violent with you or threaten you with deadly force, then you shoot them dead.

However, this is possible thanks to technology. I often wonder what would happen 100 years earlier. If someone came to your house and started to lead your horse away, would you just have to sit there idly and let them? There seems to be a need for a principle of protecting your property from a thief. If you pull a gun and say, "stop stealing my horse," and he calls your bluff and keeps walking away with it, are you then not justified in making good on your threat?

leadcounsel · May 24, 2011, 04:01 PM

Let's see - a man and a woman - felony thieves, caught by a wife and son in the process of the theft.

Man and woman threaten the owners.

Son shoots and kills male thief.

I'd say that provided the threats were reasonable in the subjective minds of the owners, then it's a good shoot. Can't shoot to defend property, but you can confront someone stealing property. As soon as they threaten you you can defend yourself.

markj · May 24, 2011, 04:46 PM

I wasnt there, didnt see ot hear the threat. But if it was mine, I too would try to stop them. If one pulled any type of weapon they would get hurt.

Dont try to take my stuff I worked so hard to get and I wont get angry. Easy rule to live by.

I had someone steal the stereos out of a car I had, twice. I know what it is like to not have money but have to replace something you worked hard to earn the first time. Just isnt right.

My Uncle USMC korea vet says kill all them in jail, kill them that steal rob or hurt others. He was an Omaha police detective at one time

tougher than iron still in his 70s. I sometimes feel the same way.

highvel · May 24, 2011, 05:04 PM

Thou shalt not threaten the person holding the shotgun, here's your sign

Marlin009 · May 24, 2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leadcounsel

I'd say that provided the threats were reasonable in the subjective minds of the owners, then it's a good shoot.

I agree that is the bottom line. There aren't enough details in the articles I've read to be able to determine what actually happened. I'm sure the details will come out.

One said that the wife had been robbed at gunpoint in her driveway a few years earlier. Although it doesn't have anything to do with this situation (presumably) it adds to the mental state of the victims.

Another indicated the perp was a deaf mute and could not have "threatened" the mother and son. I'm not buying that, plenty of ways to convey a non-verbal threat.

BTW - Thanks Glenn.

Eghad · May 24, 2011, 05:46 PM

need more info

I wonder how the vehicles were secured?

I know its a pain in the rear to have to lock stuff down you want to use at a moments notice. These days a good strong lock and chains can save you a world of grief.

I have my ATV parked under a carport at the house with 4 seperate chains and big sturdy locks. When I load it on my trailer I secure it again 4 times.

hogdogs · May 24, 2011, 06:28 PM

Quote:

These days a good strong lock and chains can save you a world of grief.

A lock is just to keep an honest man honest...

I cannot voice my opinion on this situation as I value my membership at TFL... Hope the folks remain un-charged.

Brent

Eghad · May 24, 2011, 07:03 PM

Anything can be stolen.

A thief is looking for something to get in and out in a hurry.

Delay is the name of the game.

lights, locks and barriers

recognize your risk to crime and reduce your risk

My neighbors are softer targets than me.

Uncle Buck · May 24, 2011, 07:28 PM

I hope the family makes out OK and are not charged. I also hope that by not being charged, it sends a strong message to the thieves that their B.S. is not going to be tolerated.

I have a friend who works in the repo business. He hates locks, not because they stop him, they just slow him down.

Marlin009 · May 24, 2011, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eghad

need more info

No doubt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eghad

I wonder how the vehicles were secured?

I know its a pain in the rear to have to lock stuff down you want to use at a moments notice. These days a good strong lock and chains can save you a world of grief.

I have my ATV parked under a carport at the house with 4 seperate chains and big sturdy locks. When I load it on my trailer I secure it again 4 times.

I have a 12' Carolina Skiff on a davit on my dock, and a 27 Contender in a 4 pole lift. The davit for the skiff requires an extension cord (like this situation), there is no power to the lift for the big boat unless I'm using it, the breaker is off. That's no guarantee, I've heard of them bringing their own power source.

I shouldn't have to do more than that, and won't. Apparently that wasn't enough for this individual, he paid the price. If my wife had been robbed in our driveway two years before, I'd probably have a different take on what I would do. I'm still interested to see what the legal aspects of this are.

bigbaby · May 24, 2011, 07:59 PM

If someone is stealing my truck, it is a felony. I guess it would be legal to make a citizen's arrest, if they resist, hit them with the butt of your rifle or shotgun, with the safety on, of course. If they are armed and resist shot them; just don't do it in MD> In MD you just have to let them steal your truck and call 9-11. MD has absolutely no concept of the second amendment.

C0untZer0 · May 24, 2011, 08:15 PM

I'm kinda curious to see if the increasing problem of boat theft starts decreasing after this incident.

C0untZer0 · May 24, 2011, 08:21 PM

Your story link went 404 ie - belly up.

The shooter was 14. That complicates the case enormously.

Supposedly the theif was deaf - HA HA - I guess he wasn't instantly paralyzed with fear just by the awesome sound of a pump shotgun being racked...

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/2...-was-deaf.html

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/122450819.html

Under Florida law, if a death occurs during a felony, the accomplice can be charged with the death.

I love that law... they should also tack on another law to it...

"Under Florida law, if a death occurs during a felony, the accomplice, after serving their sentence can be deported."

teeroux · May 24, 2011, 11:39 PM

Quote:

"Under Florida law, if a death occurs during a felony, the accomplice, after serving their sentence can be deported."

Na it should say the accomplice can serve thier dead buddys sentence too.

JustThisGuy · June 13, 2011, 09:36 AM

teeroux: Excellent!

bitttorrrent · June 15, 2011, 02:54 PM

Could care less about the stuff - have had things stolen before - but that is life in this world.

If someone ever, remotely for just one second, while on my property (in felony process meaning, stealing or breaking in) threatened the safety of my kids and family, they would end up like the guy in this story.

No exceptions.

No excuses.

The teenager must have felt threatened, so I believe he had every right.

RETG · June 15, 2011, 04:52 PM

Also, I hope they take into consideration a threat to a teenage who is protecting mom, might not be a serious threat to a man with a shotgun protecting his wife.

That teenager, will probably require some serious help too.

Would love to know what the threat was. If the guy had a set of bolt cutters, larger screwdriver, hammer, etc., they can and are considered deadly weapons.

May 24, 2011, 08:39 AM	#1
Marlin009 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 187	Wave runner thief shot in head, police probing whether it was justifiable Opened as we have a nice rewrite - Thanks Marlin, Glenn. This past Saturday afternoon, a man and a woman attempted to steal a wave runner from a waterfront home in Miami. The home was occupied by the owner’s wife and teenage son. They confronted the man as he attempted to lower the wave runner on its lift into the water after he had connected power to the lift with an extension cord. The police report indicates the man threatened the two, it does not say how. The teenager shot the man in the head with a shotgun and killed him. The woman (accomplice) has been charged with 2nd degree murder in his death. The two had planned to sell the wave runner for $2,000. I live in Florida and have two boats on lifts. I doubt that I would shoot someone for trying to steal them, although I do not know. Florida law does allow the use of deadly force to protect yourself, or another, or your home from someone who is committing, or trying to commit, a forcible felony. I’m not sure if this situation constitutes a forcible felony. If the man were armed and displayed the weapon, then I believe it would. As of yesterday, no charges had been filed against the mother and son. I hope they don’t, clearly they will have enough to deal with. People should just leave other peoples property alone. This has been an increasing problem in Florida (boat thefts) in the past few years. Here is a link to the article in the Miami Herald newspaper. http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/2...t-in-head.html

May 24, 2011, 01:40 PM	#3
Crazy88Fingers Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2010 Location: WesTex Posts: 958	If the bad guy was in the process of committing a felony on their property and threatened them in any way, then I'd say the shooting was justified. But I'm no big city lawyer. __________________ "And I'm tellin' you son, well it ain't no fun, staring straight down a .44" -Lynyrd Skynyrd

May 24, 2011, 05:04 PM	#9
highvel Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Location: Powhatan VA Posts: 633	Thou shalt not threaten the person holding the shotgun, here's your sign __________________ Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.--Mark Twain "I have opinions of my own 'strong opinions' but I don't always agree with them."--George Bush

May 24, 2011, 05:46 PM	#11
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	need more info I wonder how the vehicles were secured? I know its a pain in the rear to have to lock stuff down you want to use at a moments notice. These days a good strong lock and chains can save you a world of grief. I have my ATV parked under a carport at the house with 4 seperate chains and big sturdy locks. When I load it on my trailer I secure it again 4 times. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

May 24, 2011, 07:03 PM	#13
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	Anything can be stolen. A thief is looking for something to get in and out in a hurry. Delay is the name of the game. lights, locks and barriers recognize your risk to crime and reduce your risk My neighbors are softer targets than me. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

May 24, 2011, 03:02 PM	#5
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	True, if they get charged. Otherwise, they are probably out a consultation fee. I think any prudent person would consult an attorney while waiting to see if charges will be filed.

May 24, 2011, 03:33 PM	#6
tactidrool Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Posts: 8	This is where you go armed with a cell phone camera, snap a picture of them in the act of the theft, and tell them you are calling the police. If they then get violent with you or threaten you with deadly force, then you shoot them dead. However, this is possible thanks to technology. I often wonder what would happen 100 years earlier. If someone came to your house and started to lead your horse away, would you just have to sit there idly and let them? There seems to be a need for a principle of protecting your property from a thief. If you pull a gun and say, "stop stealing my horse," and he calls your bluff and keeps walking away with it, are you then not justified in making good on your threat?

May 24, 2011, 04:01 PM	#7
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Let's see - a man and a woman - felony thieves, caught by a wife and son in the process of the theft. Man and woman threaten the owners. Son shoots and kills male thief. I'd say that provided the threats were reasonable in the subjective minds of the owners, then it's a good shoot. Can't shoot to defend property, but you can confront someone stealing property. As soon as they threaten you you can defend yourself.

May 24, 2011, 04:46 PM	#8
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	I wasnt there, didnt see ot hear the threat. But if it was mine, I too would try to stop them. If one pulled any type of weapon they would get hurt. Dont try to take my stuff I worked so hard to get and I wont get angry. Easy rule to live by. I had someone steal the stereos out of a car I had, twice. I know what it is like to not have money but have to replace something you worked hard to earn the first time. Just isnt right. My Uncle USMC korea vet says kill all them in jail, kill them that steal rob or hurt others. He was an Omaha police detective at one time tougher than iron still in his 70s. I sometimes feel the same way.

May 24, 2011, 07:28 PM	#14
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	I hope the family makes out OK and are not charged. I also hope that by not being charged, it sends a strong message to the thieves that their B.S. is not going to be tolerated. I have a friend who works in the repo business. He hates locks, not because they stop him, they just slow him down. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

May 24, 2011, 07:59 PM	#16
bigbaby Member Join Date: May 11, 2011 Location: Baltimore Posts: 79	If someone is stealing my truck, it is a felony. I guess it would be legal to make a citizen's arrest, if they resist, hit them with the butt of your rifle or shotgun, with the safety on, of course. If they are armed and resist shot them; just don't do it in MD> In MD you just have to let them steal your truck and call 9-11. MD has absolutely no concept of the second amendment. __________________ "Do I preach to you when you are laying stoned in the gutter? No. Now beat it!" Futurama

May 24, 2011, 08:15 PM	#17
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I'm kinda curious to see if the increasing problem of boat theft starts decreasing after this incident.

May 24, 2011, 08:21 PM	#18
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Your story link went 404 ie - belly up. The shooter was 14. That complicates the case enormously. Supposedly the theif was deaf - HA HA - I guess he wasn't instantly paralyzed with fear just by the awesome sound of a pump shotgun being racked... http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/2...-was-deaf.html http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/122450819.html Under Florida law, if a death occurs during a felony, the accomplice can be charged with the death. I love that law... they should also tack on another law to it... "Under Florida law, if a death occurs during a felony, the accomplice, after serving their sentence can be deported."

June 13, 2011, 09:36 AM	#20
JustThisGuy Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Posts: 311	teeroux: Excellent! __________________ JustThisGuy Mediocrity dominates over excellence in all things... except excellence.

June 15, 2011, 02:54 PM	#21
bitttorrrent Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Chicago Posts: 703	Could care less about the stuff - have had things stolen before - but that is life in this world. If someone ever, remotely for just one second, while on my property (in felony process meaning, stealing or breaking in) threatened the safety of my kids and family, they would end up like the guy in this story. No exceptions. No excuses. The teenager must have felt threatened, so I believe he had every right.

June 15, 2011, 04:52 PM	#22
RETG Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2009 Location: Somewhere in Idaho, near WY Posts: 507	Also, I hope they take into consideration a threat to a teenage who is protecting mom, might not be a serious threat to a man with a shotgun protecting his wife. That teenager, will probably require some serious help too. Would love to know what the threat was. If the guy had a set of bolt cutters, larger screwdriver, hammer, etc., they can and are considered deadly weapons.