.308 Win brass with a totally flat neck?

ADB · February 4, 2010, 02:40 AM

This is odd. I got 14 rounds of .308 brass in the mail the other day, part of a trade deal. One of them still had a live primer, so I ignored it while decapping and repriming the rest. Come to find out when I did finally look at it, it's very weird--the neck is flat. Not flat as in deformed and flattened, but it looks like somebody made .308 brass with absolutely no angle on the neck. It's marked on the base S&B (presumably Sellier and Bellot) 308W, so clearly it's the right type of brass, but I've never seen anything like it before.

Is this something somebody modified after the fact, and if so why?

Sport45 · February 4, 2010, 04:32 AM

What do you mean by no angle to the neck? The neck isn't supposed to have any angle. The sides of the neck should be parallel in order to get proper bullet retention (neck tension). Are you maybe talking about the normal radius between the shoulder and neck?

If it looks like a sharp corner between the shoulder and neck someone may have outside turned the neck on that case.

Doby45 · February 4, 2010, 09:57 AM

Are you saying the shell basically looked like a long straight walled pistol case?

Sevens · February 4, 2010, 11:04 AM

If it's primed and looks new/unfired (look inside to see if it's bright inside) then it's most likely a factory error that slipped through quality checks.

If it's primed and dirty inside, it could have been reprimed by a handloader after being fired in the wrong gun, which blew out the neck.

Doby45 · February 4, 2010, 11:10 AM

Could you still run it slowly through your sizing die and use it? If it sizes to the correct length or longer and can be cut down?

kraigwy · February 4, 2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Are you saying the shell basically looked like a long straight walled pistol case?

I was thinking the same thing. I'd kind of like to see pictures.

Years ago when I was running sniper schools for the National Guard, we were switching from the M1C/Ds to M21s. Per normal, all units didnt switch at the same time so I had both M1C/Ds and M21s, which means I had to have both M-72 & M118. Idiots being idiots, there were a lot of M118s fired in the M1C/Ds and the brass came out looking like a small 458 win. The cases were almost straight wall except for what looked like a slight roll crimp on the mouth.

Sport45 · February 5, 2010, 06:58 AM

^^^ I thought he might mean that too, but figured he would have described that as not having no neck. His description of no angle to the neck is certainly confusing. Maybe instead he means no taper (90° angle) of the shoulder??? It would be great if ADB would check back in to clarify.

steve4102 · February 5, 2010, 07:26 AM

My guess would be an Ackley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.O._Ackley

rattletrap1970 · February 5, 2010, 07:54 AM

I was thinking a .308 fired from a .30-06 also. Definitely a little funny looking.

ADB · February 8, 2010, 03:35 PM

Hey folks, sorry this took so long. What I mean by "no angle" isn't that the brass has no neck, it's that the neck is totally flat--it goes from the wider base to the narrow bullet end via a right angle turns, without tapering at all. Here's a photo.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9910/brassc.jpg

I thought it was some other kind of brass at first too, but the headstamp is unambiguously "S&B 308W," and no other brass seems to fit that I've been able to see, either. It's clearly not new brass. It appears to have some kind of seam or imperfection line running all the way around the case just below the first turn.

jimkim · February 8, 2010, 03:42 PM

It looks like a collapsed shoulder to me. I'm thinking he ran a loaded round into a sizing die.

ADB · February 8, 2010, 04:43 PM

It seems to me to be too perfectly even to be an accident. The rim, if you want to call it that, is totally uniform the entire way around the case, and clearly seems to have been deliberately formed.

Dave R · February 8, 2010, 08:17 PM

Early in my reloading career I made a few cases like that, due to my crimp being adjusted (way) wrong. Collapsed shoulders tend to be very uniform.

Toss the case. If you shoot it, the neck will split.

Uncle Buck · February 9, 2010, 01:34 PM

Looks like some of my 30-30 monsters I made when trying to set up my dies.
I would toss them into the recycling bin, unless you want to make a new gun with a chamber to fit them. We could call them... the ADB .308 Short?

5R milspec · February 9, 2010, 07:22 PM

could have been a lee collet die and the collet was stuck.done it before I polished the two matteing parts with a collet die.after I polished the two parts this hasn't happened again.but this is just my guess.

gearheadpyro · February 9, 2010, 09:12 PM

+1 on the Collet Die at fault. I too have squashed a couple of cases just like this. The giveaway is it has some markings on the case neck.

I've found this happens if the collet die is adjusted too far down and the collet binds. The case can not slide freely into the die like normal and thus squishes down onto itself. The unkowing reloader simply assumes that its at the top of the stroke and gives it a good hard shove to "size it". The result is what you have pictured.

Mike40-11 · February 11, 2010, 06:30 AM

At one time the British in India used rifles with the chambers reamed to square shoulders. The idea was that the cases would be blown out in firing preventing the enemy from re-using them.

It also looks similar, but not identical, to some military blanks I've seen. I swear I've seen brass with that profile before but I can't for the life of me remember where or what it was.

February 4, 2010, 02:40 AM	#1
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	.308 Win brass with a totally flat neck? This is odd. I got 14 rounds of .308 brass in the mail the other day, part of a trade deal. One of them still had a live primer, so I ignored it while decapping and repriming the rest. Come to find out when I did finally look at it, it's very weird--the neck is flat. Not flat as in deformed and flattened, but it looks like somebody made .308 brass with absolutely no angle on the neck. It's marked on the base S&B (presumably Sellier and Bellot) 308W, so clearly it's the right type of brass, but I've never seen anything like it before. Is this something somebody modified after the fact, and if so why?

February 4, 2010, 04:32 AM	#2
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	What do you mean by no angle to the neck? The neck isn't supposed to have any angle. The sides of the neck should be parallel in order to get proper bullet retention (neck tension). Are you maybe talking about the normal radius between the shoulder and neck? If it looks like a sharp corner between the shoulder and neck someone may have outside turned the neck on that case. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

February 4, 2010, 11:04 AM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,755	If it's primed and looks new/unfired (look inside to see if it's bright inside) then it's most likely a factory error that slipped through quality checks. If it's primed and dirty inside, it could have been reprimed by a handloader after being fired in the wrong gun, which blew out the neck. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 5, 2010, 06:58 AM	#7
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	^^^ I thought he might mean that too, but figured he would have described that as not having no neck. His description of no angle to the neck is certainly confusing. Maybe instead he means no taper (90° angle) of the shoulder??? It would be great if ADB would check back in to clarify. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

February 8, 2010, 03:42 PM	#11
jimkim Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2008 Location: middle GA Posts: 326	It looks like a collapsed shoulder to me. I'm thinking he ran a loaded round into a sizing die. __________________ Jan. 4, 2007 gasoline $2.10 gal....HMMM?

February 4, 2010, 09:57 AM	#3
Doby45 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Powder Springs, GA Posts: 213	Are you saying the shell basically looked like a long straight walled pistol case?

February 4, 2010, 11:10 AM	#5
Doby45 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Powder Springs, GA Posts: 213	Could you still run it slowly through your sizing die and use it? If it sizes to the correct length or longer and can be cut down?

February 5, 2010, 07:26 AM	#8
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	My guess would be an Ackley. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.O._Ackley

February 5, 2010, 07:54 AM	#9
rattletrap1970 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: Torrington, CT. USA Posts: 299	I was thinking a .308 fired from a .30-06 also. Definitely a little funny looking.

February 8, 2010, 03:35 PM	#10
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	Hey folks, sorry this took so long. What I mean by "no angle" isn't that the brass has no neck, it's that the neck is totally flat--it goes from the wider base to the narrow bullet end via a right angle turns, without tapering at all. Here's a photo. http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9910/brassc.jpg I thought it was some other kind of brass at first too, but the headstamp is unambiguously "S&B 308W," and no other brass seems to fit that I've been able to see, either. It's clearly not new brass. It appears to have some kind of seam or imperfection line running all the way around the case just below the first turn.

February 8, 2010, 04:43 PM	#12
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	It seems to me to be too perfectly even to be an accident. The rim, if you want to call it that, is totally uniform the entire way around the case, and clearly seems to have been deliberately formed.

February 8, 2010, 08:17 PM	#13
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	Early in my reloading career I made a few cases like that, due to my crimp being adjusted (way) wrong. Collapsed shoulders tend to be very uniform. Toss the case. If you shoot it, the neck will split. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

February 9, 2010, 01:34 PM	#14
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Looks like some of my 30-30 monsters I made when trying to set up my dies. I would toss them into the recycling bin, unless you want to make a new gun with a chamber to fit them. We could call them... the ADB .308 Short? __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

February 9, 2010, 07:22 PM	#15
5R milspec Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 360	could have been a lee collet die and the collet was stuck.done it before I polished the two matteing parts with a collet die.after I polished the two parts this hasn't happened again.but this is just my guess.

February 9, 2010, 09:12 PM	#16
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	+1 on the Collet Die at fault. I too have squashed a couple of cases just like this. The giveaway is it has some markings on the case neck. I've found this happens if the collet die is adjusted too far down and the collet binds. The case can not slide freely into the die like normal and thus squishes down onto itself. The unkowing reloader simply assumes that its at the top of the stroke and gives it a good hard shove to "size it". The result is what you have pictured. __________________ www.southernmarksman.com Owner of & Chief Instructor for The Southern Marksman, LLC NRA Life Member, NRA CRSO, Multi-Discipline NRA Certified Instructor

February 11, 2010, 06:30 AM	#17
Mike40-11 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 841	At one time the British in India used rifles with the chambers reamed to square shoulders. The idea was that the cases would be blown out in firing preventing the enemy from re-using them. It also looks similar, but not identical, to some military blanks I've seen. I swear I've seen brass with that profile before but I can't for the life of me remember where or what it was.

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