Assign a new SAA serial number?!

broknprism · October 18, 2007, 03:31 PM

I read an article yesterday -- can't remember where, now -- and the author said he acquired an old beater 1st gen SAA. It was made of different parts, and he had it restored. When he restored it, he said the gunsmith (a well-known SAA smith whose first and/or last name satrts with L, can't recall)gave it a new serial number. ?

My question is, can you do that? If so, what is the administrative mechanism? To take an old gun like that and 'assign' an S/N effectively alters the old one -- a felony on a modern gun. Does the age of the gun have a bearing on this? If it's an antique, has it dropped off the ATF's radar for the purposes of tracing/tracking? Is it no longer a gun, hence no longer a crime? If you can do it to a 1st gen, can you do it to a 3rd gen?

Hawg · October 18, 2007, 04:27 PM

I don't know about the legality of altering the serial number on a 1st gen. Colt but what he has done is create a fake and if he sells it as an all matching gun and gets caught he can be prosecuted for fraud. It is most definitely illegal to renumber a 3rd gen.

CraigC · October 18, 2007, 05:22 PM

A restoration or custom gunsmith with a manufacturer's license can assign a new serial number. This is done with new guns as well. The key is the manufacturer's license.

broknprism · October 19, 2007, 10:35 AM

This is why Turnbull can take a USFA SAA, add DT to the prefix, and create a custom gun. I see.

I understand that by assigning a new serial number, one COULD attempt to defraud a buyer, but not everyone thinks that way. (I think at that price level, experts get involved anyway, and they x-ray parts, etc.)

I have a new 3rd gen with a black powder frame that -- if I could afford it -- I would alter cosmetically for my own appreciation of the gun. Bevel the cylinder face, color case the hammer, etc., to make it look more 1880. You can go only so far with a project like that before you have to deal with the location and style of serial number. Why go to the trouble of adding the S/N to the trigger guard and grip frame if you have to include the S and the A, an obviously modern touch? Provided you didn't duplicate an actual 1st gen S/N, it seems plausible that you could recreate the style without actually breaking any laws. Add a digit, for example -- a leading 0, which I don't think Colt did. Just wondering about the legal mechanism.

James K · October 19, 2007, 11:56 AM

I don't know for sure, but I suspect what the restorer did was to renumber the other parts to match the frame serial number. The obvious intent is to pass the gun off as "all matching" and "original" at some later date. Fraud? Sure it is fraud, but "restorers" justify it by saying that they just want a nice gun for their own satisfaction. Increasing the value several times over had nothing to do with it, of course, and they don't plan to sell it ever, or at least not until the next gun show.

Another trick is to learn of a Colt letter saying that, for example, SAA serial number 123456 was shipped to Bat Masterson. Then the faker gets hold of an old SAA and has the numbers filled and restamped to 123456. Now he can offer the gun along with the letter at a fabulous price. And any suspicious buyer, thinking how easy it is to fake a letter, can write Colt with the number and get the same response.

Is it illegal? Sure. Is anyone ever prosecuted? Not that I know of, BATFE having more important things to do. Can the buyer sue for fraud? Yes, but the seller simply says that he will take the gun back and return the money, which satisfies any claims.

That is why anyone planning to spend big bucks on antique guns should do some research into restoration work and also look at as many genuine items as possible.

Jim

broknprism · October 19, 2007, 12:37 PM

Jim, I'm with you that buyers should do research, but I still think we're jumping the gun in assuming fraud. The article I read was by a well-known gunwriter, and I think the smith was Larry Larsen, a respected industry pro. I don't know if numbers were matched to the frame -- it may have been a new number and may even have had some sort of prefix like LL, as Turnbull Colts have DRT prefixes. I can't say because the article didn't say. I was just asking how this could be done legally, and someone answered my question. I'm sure it wasn't a back room operation with an intent to deceive anyone. You don't do that, then publish the details of your project if you intend to defraud someone later. I don't know why we're leaping to that conclusion, that alterations are necessarily a prelude to fraud. Government armorers altered plenty of original Colts when they assembled artillery models from parts bins.

broknprism · October 19, 2007, 01:58 PM

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/D2.html

I found the article, if anyone cares. It seems that Larsen added a S/N -- his son's birthday furnished the numbers -- to the butt of a mixed-part cavalry model. He didn't alter the S/N on the frame. As I said, I didn't remember much of what I read except the assignment of an S/N to the gun. I guess you can write numbers all over a Colt if you want to, but it still leaves me wondering if you can invent a new number for the frame, as long as it's properly recorded. A leading-zero number, as I said, wouldn't counterfeit a known Colt, and would serve the purpose of identifying the gun for the ATF's purposes. Evidently you can at least add random numbers to the trigger guard and grip frame of a 3rd gen to make it a little more period authentic. (This does, though, beg the question of the original Colt grip frame that happens to bear Larsen's son's birthday as the S/N. If it still exists, now there are two of them.)

CraigC · October 19, 2007, 07:44 PM

You won't find many if any at all professional restorers producing fakes with the intent to defraud. Word gets around quick and they have to find a new line of work. With many of them so busy with at least a six month backlog, if not a year or two, they're just not gonna take that risk. Their reputation is their livelihood.

James K · October 19, 2007, 09:26 PM

I am not sure what adding a new serial number does for the gun, but I admit it was not done with fraudulent intent. I would also agree that the better known professional restorers would not perpetrate fraud, but it is pretty obvious that someone does. There is plenty of evidence coming out of the West Coast and fakes of various kinds turn up all the time. The people doing that work certainly have no goal except fraud, no matter what they say.

Jim

broknprism · October 21, 2007, 05:27 PM

While trying to get to teh bottom of the original question -- can you reassign a S/N to a gun, for whatever reason -- I learned this (for those who may ask the same question later):

Turnbull, who can assign frame numbers to guns they make, said they don't/can't assign frame numbers to guns they DIDN'T make. No word yet on whether they'll stamp numbers on grip frames and trigger guards, but now I don't see the point of adding those authentic touches if you're stuck with the SxxxxxA format on the frame. The practical limit of an 'antiquiing' project -- not a counterfeit operation -- is reached quickly when you stay inside the law.

October 18, 2007, 03:31 PM	#1
broknprism Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Posts: 28	Assign a new SAA serial number?! I read an article yesterday -- can't remember where, now -- and the author said he acquired an old beater 1st gen SAA. It was made of different parts, and he had it restored. When he restored it, he said the gunsmith (a well-known SAA smith whose first and/or last name satrts with L, can't recall)gave it a new serial number. ? My question is, can you do that? If so, what is the administrative mechanism? To take an old gun like that and 'assign' an S/N effectively alters the old one -- a felony on a modern gun. Does the age of the gun have a bearing on this? If it's an antique, has it dropped off the ATF's radar for the purposes of tracing/tracking? Is it no longer a gun, hence no longer a crime? If you can do it to a 1st gen, can you do it to a 3rd gen?

October 19, 2007, 10:35 AM	#4
broknprism Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Posts: 28	Manufacturer's license This is why Turnbull can take a USFA SAA, add DT to the prefix, and create a custom gun. I see. I understand that by assigning a new serial number, one COULD attempt to defraud a buyer, but not everyone thinks that way. (I think at that price level, experts get involved anyway, and they x-ray parts, etc.) I have a new 3rd gen with a black powder frame that -- if I could afford it -- I would alter cosmetically for my own appreciation of the gun. Bevel the cylinder face, color case the hammer, etc., to make it look more 1880. You can go only so far with a project like that before you have to deal with the location and style of serial number. Why go to the trouble of adding the S/N to the trigger guard and grip frame if you have to include the S and the A, an obviously modern touch? Provided you didn't duplicate an actual 1st gen S/N, it seems plausible that you could recreate the style without actually breaking any laws. Add a digit, for example -- a leading 0, which I don't think Colt did. Just wondering about the legal mechanism.

October 19, 2007, 01:58 PM	#7
broknprism Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Posts: 28	My mistake! Sort of. http://www.gunsmagazine.com/D2.html I found the article, if anyone cares. It seems that Larsen added a S/N -- his son's birthday furnished the numbers -- to the butt of a mixed-part cavalry model. He didn't alter the S/N on the frame. As I said, I didn't remember much of what I read except the assignment of an S/N to the gun. I guess you can write numbers all over a Colt if you want to, but it still leaves me wondering if you can invent a new number for the frame, as long as it's properly recorded. A leading-zero number, as I said, wouldn't counterfeit a known Colt, and would serve the purpose of identifying the gun for the ATF's purposes. Evidently you can at least add random numbers to the trigger guard and grip frame of a 3rd gen to make it a little more period authentic. (This does, though, beg the question of the original Colt grip frame that happens to bear Larsen's son's birthday as the S/N. If it still exists, now there are two of them.)

October 21, 2007, 05:27 PM	#10
broknprism Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Posts: 28	Research results While trying to get to teh bottom of the original question -- can you reassign a S/N to a gun, for whatever reason -- I learned this (for those who may ask the same question later): Turnbull, who can assign frame numbers to guns they make, said they don't/can't assign frame numbers to guns they DIDN'T make. No word yet on whether they'll stamp numbers on grip frames and trigger guards, but now I don't see the point of adding those authentic touches if you're stuck with the SxxxxxA format on the frame. The practical limit of an 'antiquiing' project -- not a counterfeit operation -- is reached quickly when you stay inside the law.

October 18, 2007, 04:27 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I don't know about the legality of altering the serial number on a 1st gen. Colt but what he has done is create a fake and if he sells it as an all matching gun and gets caught he can be prosecuted for fraud. It is most definitely illegal to renumber a 3rd gen.

October 18, 2007, 05:22 PM	#3
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	A restoration or custom gunsmith with a manufacturer's license can assign a new serial number. This is done with new guns as well. The key is the manufacturer's license.

October 19, 2007, 11:56 AM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't know for sure, but I suspect what the restorer did was to renumber the other parts to match the frame serial number. The obvious intent is to pass the gun off as "all matching" and "original" at some later date. Fraud? Sure it is fraud, but "restorers" justify it by saying that they just want a nice gun for their own satisfaction. Increasing the value several times over had nothing to do with it, of course, and they don't plan to sell it ever, or at least not until the next gun show. Another trick is to learn of a Colt letter saying that, for example, SAA serial number 123456 was shipped to Bat Masterson. Then the faker gets hold of an old SAA and has the numbers filled and restamped to 123456. Now he can offer the gun along with the letter at a fabulous price. And any suspicious buyer, thinking how easy it is to fake a letter, can write Colt with the number and get the same response. Is it illegal? Sure. Is anyone ever prosecuted? Not that I know of, BATFE having more important things to do. Can the buyer sue for fraud? Yes, but the seller simply says that he will take the gun back and return the money, which satisfies any claims. That is why anyone planning to spend big bucks on antique guns should do some research into restoration work and also look at as many genuine items as possible. Jim

October 19, 2007, 12:37 PM	#6
broknprism Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Posts: 28	Jim, I'm with you that buyers should do research, but I still think we're jumping the gun in assuming fraud. The article I read was by a well-known gunwriter, and I think the smith was Larry Larsen, a respected industry pro. I don't know if numbers were matched to the frame -- it may have been a new number and may even have had some sort of prefix like LL, as Turnbull Colts have DRT prefixes. I can't say because the article didn't say. I was just asking how this could be done legally, and someone answered my question. I'm sure it wasn't a back room operation with an intent to deceive anyone. You don't do that, then publish the details of your project if you intend to defraud someone later. I don't know why we're leaping to that conclusion, that alterations are necessarily a prelude to fraud. Government armorers altered plenty of original Colts when they assembled artillery models from parts bins.

October 19, 2007, 07:44 PM	#8
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	You won't find many if any at all professional restorers producing fakes with the intent to defraud. Word gets around quick and they have to find a new line of work. With many of them so busy with at least a six month backlog, if not a year or two, they're just not gonna take that risk. Their reputation is their livelihood.

October 19, 2007, 09:26 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am not sure what adding a new serial number does for the gun, but I admit it was not done with fraudulent intent. I would also agree that the better known professional restorers would not perpetrate fraud, but it is pretty obvious that someone does. There is plenty of evidence coming out of the West Coast and fakes of various kinds turn up all the time. The people doing that work certainly have no goal except fraud, no matter what they say. Jim