Interesting issue with Unique

mfree · January 25, 2007, 10:30 AM

Well, I finally started reloading. Last week I set out with my new equipment to make a couple "proof of concept" starting loads, nothing serious... .38spl, 148gr hornady HBWC's with what several books said was a decent starting load, 3.6gn unique, using the Lee .3cc dipper.

Turns out that was low. Way low, low enough to keyhole out of a Colt OP. So I check the stick that came with the dippers; seems .3cc is 2.7gr, and .5cc (next up) is 4.6 and over the max load.

So, I got a small scale, a Jennings JS-50X. No great shakes but adequate, since I figured to make a custom dipper. I calibrated it, checked it's accuracy with some of the bullets I was loading with, and set a slick sheet of paper on the pad and tared it to zero.

.3cc was 2.2gn
.5cc was 3.7gn.

Those should have been 2.7gn and 4.6gn, respectively. Unique was casting light, way light.

Has Alliant changed the formula (cleaner burning!) to make it less dense? Is that going to mess with the load data? I'm going to figure to make two dippers, one that throws 3.7gn and one that does 4.0gn...

okiefarmer · January 25, 2007, 10:58 AM

This may be a really stupid response, but why don't you just buy a powder measure. I have never had powders come out to what LEE printed on those little dippers. I don't know what they used, but it wasn't what I have. Seems like you are going through a bunch of steps that a good powder measure could cure for you in one stroke.

mfree · January 25, 2007, 11:15 AM

I'm trying to stay on the economical side of things; so far I'm $30 into my measuring equipment and with some elbow grease I've got all I need to do what I intend, making a couple hundred .38 target rounds for practice before I land a chronograph and start working up loads for other chamberings.

Basically you've partially answered what I intended to ask, which was if there was anything "wrong" with th ereformulated powder. You tell me that the Lee dippers don't normally come out right for you, which makes them suspect over the powder.

JoeHatley · January 25, 2007, 11:43 AM

The powder is fine. The biggest variable with using powder dippers is the operator technique. Very hard to stay with a consitant "scoop". This causes the amount of powder in the dipper to be packed more dense or loose.

Now that you have a scale, practice your technique until you get the results you are looking for, by checking with the scale. Then just never vary...

Good Luck...

Joe

Zippy06 · January 25, 2007, 12:26 PM

What type of press are you using? Sounds like single stage.
Lee has a turret package, with everything, that you need. buy from Cabela's or Midwayusa.com. Lee gives them a huge discount.
Glad to hear you bought a scale.

benedict1 · January 25, 2007, 12:39 PM

The powder is okay--it can vary as much as 15-19% in density from lot to lot. Also, humidity conditions and temperature can affect it. If it is very dry, the powder granules easily pick up static charge and repel one another so it is even more light.

mfree · January 25, 2007, 03:22 PM

Well, my technique could definitely be called into account for causing a less dense charge... all sideways movements and "gravity fill". That and my house stays around 45-50% humidity.

Yeah, I'll be using an empty case soldered to a brass tube as a custom dipper here shortly.

mjrodney · January 25, 2007, 03:26 PM

For test results on dipper accuracy, see:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ipper+accuracy

renaissance7697 · January 25, 2007, 03:29 PM

I know you said that you intended to "Go Economical" so this comment is probably not on your radar..but
I just got to say......................
I recently got one of those RCBS combination Powder dispenser and Electronic scale set ups.

It is FANTASTIC !

Punch in the weight desired (buttons) and it both pours it out and confirms the charge quickly and automatically.

I know this is not ameniable to a progressive

But it sure is elegant and precise when working any scheme involving a "loading block" where you want to hand drop a precise charge of powder into a primed case.
( Like 44 Magnum and .357 MAXIMUM) which I am into now.

Poodleshooter · January 25, 2007, 04:54 PM

Dippers work great if you do it the same way,every time.
The problem is that only very,very meticulous people can do that 50-500 times in a row. I sure can't.

That's why most of us use powder throwers. It eliminates some of the possible technique error,making even sloppy technique much more accurate.
Get a Lee PPM or Auto Disk. They run about $20-30.

XD-Guy · January 25, 2007, 05:15 PM

Di

Quote:

ppers work great if you do it the same way,every time.
The problem is that only very,very meticulous people can do that 50-500 times in a row. I sure can't.
That's why most of us use powder throwers. It eliminates some of the possible technique error,making even sloppy technique much more accurate.
Get a Lee PPM or Auto Disk. They run about $20-30.

+1 what he said

mjrodney · January 25, 2007, 07:56 PM

But then again, what is a dipper?

It's a hole with a bottom you fill with powder by dipping the thing into the unpacked by gravity, loosely packed, top of the powder supply.

What is a powder dispenser? It's a hole with a bottom, that slides under, or rotates under, a hopper that fills the hole with powder; albeit, from a supply that is compressed by the weight of it's own mass, unless you have a baffle.

There is no difference in Physics here.

A hole is a hole. Powder fills one, just like it fills the other.

Whether you scrape the top of the hole with a playing card, or scrape the top of the hole with a piece of aluminum casting as part of a powder dispenser, the same result occurs.

The only difference is time.

swmike · January 25, 2007, 08:11 PM

I only use Lee Charts for a starting point whether I am using a dipper or an Auto-Disk measure. I always weigh my loads, regardless.

For dipping, try just holding the dipper above the powder and with a spoon just pour some powder over the dipper. When heaping full, scrape level with a playing card. This will duplicate fairly closely what happens in a measure. Then just use the dipper that gives you the load you desire. Be sure and weigh the loads at random to see that they are still uniform.

brickeyee · January 25, 2007, 08:19 PM

The cost of a good scale will pale in comparison to you medical deductable if you blow somethnig up, let alone the value of the gun.
If you want to use lee scoops pick a smaller one that runs under and use a powder trickler to bring the scale pan up to weight.
It is slow, but you can get whatever you want.
If you decide you want to work faster consider a Uniflow with a baffle.

JoeHatley · January 26, 2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:

There is no difference in Physics here.

A hole is a hole. Powder fills one, just like it fills the other.

Respectfully... you are wrong. The amount of power in the hopper (overhead weight) or the speed and angle a dipper is moved through the powder are just some of the variables.

Joe

Oofty Goofty · January 26, 2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:
There is no difference in Physics here.

A hole is a hole. Powder fills one, just like it fills the other.
Respectfully... you are wrong. The amount of power in the hopper (overhead weight) or the speed and angle a dipper is moved through the powder are just some of the variables.

+1 Also remember that unique is a very large flake powder and the way the flakes fall in relationship to each other varies the charge. It is hard to get consistent throws with Unique even with a powder measure

**Mal H** · January 26, 2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

There is no difference in Physics here.

A hole is a hole. Powder fills one, just like it fills the other.

-1

Like JoeHatley said, the variables are far more enumerous when scooping into a can or cup of powder than when using a powder measure designed to do that uniformly at the same location in a column of powder each time. Another variable to add to Joe's is the slight bump from the handle a powder measure gets as it is filling. That bump will assist in filling the cavity to capacity much better than a non-uniform swipe through a pile of powder even if the operator levels off the top of the scoop. (In use, I always bump the handle twice at the top of the cycle.)

mjrodney · January 26, 2007, 04:55 PM

Fellas, I hear ya, and I understand the pure theory of it, but it just hasn't proved out for me using the scale.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ipper+accuracy

Not to any practical or discernable level, in any case (no pun intended).

I re-check myself periodically, especially when opening a new can of powder.

The practical variance has really been nil. I reload a lot of .38's and .45's, 150 to 400 rounds each week, and all my rounds have been the same out of the guns. Recoil is the same, report is the same, and accuracy is the same.

Scoop, tap, dump. No attention paid to angle or depth. Scoop, tap, dump.

As a result, I never worry about squibs, there is no worry about powder bridging or need for baffles, no worry about static cling and rounds that smell like perfume, and no need for a "powder cop" die or other similar arrangement.

Guys, it just works. Plain and simple.

**44 AMP** · January 28, 2007, 03:27 PM

Other than that, I have NO use for the dippers. Dippers can be as consistant as the operator, but for me the question is why bother. They never throw the exact weight listed, and one needs a complete set to have any kind of versatility.

A good scale (and a powder trickler) will give you not onlt accuracy, but all the versatility needed. Add a good powder measure, and you are ready for production.

I reload for 25 different calibers, and have never used the dipper method. I got my first tools back in the early '70s, and have only upgraded a few of them. As far as I'm concerned, a press, dies, shellholder, scale, powder measure, loading block, manual(s), caliper, and a case lube system are the basic necessities. Going with simpler (and less expensive) tools is just too labor intensive for me. Lee sells alot of the dippers, but every serious reloader I have ever known has tossed/sold/stashed them as soon as they got a scale and a measure.

I have also used fixed charge powder measures (RCBS), and I don't care much for them either. Somehow it always works out that the charge weights that work the best in my guns is never what the rotor or dipper throws. Close, but not the same. And if I am going to have to weigh charges and add a bit to make the loads I want, then the adjustable measure is the only way to go.

Now, if you're happy with what you get from dippers, by all means use them. I prefer more control and capability, and am willing to spend a bit more to get it. And, consider this, your time is worth something too. If you figure your time at your hourly wage, and then apply it to the cost of reloaded ammo, it gets a bit more expensive.

Also, the money spent on a good scale and powder measure, and trickler (or even the electronic combination units, if an investment that last a long time. If cared for properly, your tools will be doing their job correctly 30 years down the road. I am certain of this, as mine have. You can screw them up, you can allow them to be ruined (rust, etc.) but you can not wear them out easily.

amamnn · January 29, 2007, 07:52 PM

If you are using Lee dippers then I would have thought you'd get the Lee help data files. In them, there is a procedure for using Lee dippers, corrected for powder density. There can be quite a varience in density in any powder from one lot to the next. Lee bushings and dippers and load data for them are allegedly caculated for an average denisty of whatever powder. Flake powders are, if you will excuse the pun, the most flakey, densitywise. I have a bottle of Red Dot that is very close to the allowed 16% limit, light. I have a jug of Unique that is 7% light and a jug of H335 that is 1% heavy.

Until and unless you learn how to measure powder density, you will continue to get odd and puzzling results with dippers, even if you are careful to always use them as Richard Lee recommens in his book "Modern Reloading." In order to accurately and easily measure powder density, you need a scale that measures in grams and dippers that measure in cc. Then just follow the regular calculations to determine density, keeping in mind that 1 gram = 1 cc = 1mL of water (the standard for density) D= V/W

qajaq59 · January 30, 2007, 10:09 AM

Use any dipper, or a "tea spoon" for that matter, then weigh charge on an accurate scale......
Especially with Unique. You over charge with that stuff in a rifle and you're in for a heap of hurting.

January 25, 2007, 10:30 AM	#1
mfree Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2004 Posts: 506	Interesting issue with Unique Well, I finally started reloading. Last week I set out with my new equipment to make a couple "proof of concept" starting loads, nothing serious... .38spl, 148gr hornady HBWC's with what several books said was a decent starting load, 3.6gn unique, using the Lee .3cc dipper. Turns out that was low. Way low, low enough to keyhole out of a Colt OP. So I check the stick that came with the dippers; seems .3cc is 2.7gr, and .5cc (next up) is 4.6 and over the max load. So, I got a small scale, a Jennings JS-50X. No great shakes but adequate, since I figured to make a custom dipper. I calibrated it, checked it's accuracy with some of the bullets I was loading with, and set a slick sheet of paper on the pad and tared it to zero. .3cc was 2.2gn .5cc was 3.7gn. Those should have been 2.7gn and 4.6gn, respectively. Unique was casting light, way light. Has Alliant changed the formula (cleaner burning!) to make it less dense? Is that going to mess with the load data? I'm going to figure to make two dippers, one that throws 3.7gn and one that does 4.0gn... __________________ "If it's rare, strange, or odd, i want it." I drank the cool-aid. Coal Creek Armory

January 25, 2007, 11:15 AM	#3
mfree Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2004 Posts: 506	I'm trying to stay on the economical side of things; so far I'm $30 into my measuring equipment and with some elbow grease I've got all I need to do what I intend, making a couple hundred .38 target rounds for practice before I land a chronograph and start working up loads for other chamberings. Basically you've partially answered what I intended to ask, which was if there was anything "wrong" with th ereformulated powder. You tell me that the Lee dippers don't normally come out right for you, which makes them suspect over the powder. __________________ "If it's rare, strange, or odd, i want it." I drank the cool-aid. Coal Creek Armory

January 25, 2007, 11:43 AM	#4
JoeHatley Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,135	The powder is fine. The biggest variable with using powder dippers is the operator technique. Very hard to stay with a consitant "scoop". This causes the amount of powder in the dipper to be packed more dense or loose. Now that you have a scale, practice your technique until you get the results you are looking for, by checking with the scale. Then just never vary... Good Luck... Joe __________________ Go NRA

January 25, 2007, 12:26 PM	#5
Zippy06 Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: S.E. MI Posts: 117	What type of press are you using? Sounds like single stage. Lee has a turret package, with everything, that you need. buy from Cabela's or Midwayusa.com. Lee gives them a huge discount. Glad to hear you bought a scale. __________________ Zippy06. U.S.N. Vet. NRA. Lee Turret(circa 1986). 9mm, .357 Mag., .40 S&W, .223 Rem., .30-30 Win., .308 Win. G17, S&W 686, G22C, Colt H-Bar, Marlin, Savage 10FP. Be safe. Be happy

January 25, 2007, 12:39 PM	#6
benedict1 Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern California Posts: 245	The powder is okay--it can vary as much as 15-19% in density from lot to lot. Also, humidity conditions and temperature can affect it. If it is very dry, the powder granules easily pick up static charge and repel one another so it is even more light. Last edited by benedict1; January 25, 2007 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Error in answering.

January 25, 2007, 10:58 AM	#2
okiefarmer Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 381	This may be a really stupid response, but why don't you just buy a powder measure. I have never had powders come out to what LEE printed on those little dippers. I don't know what they used, but it wasn't what I have. Seems like you are going through a bunch of steps that a good powder measure could cure for you in one stroke.

January 25, 2007, 03:22 PM	#7
mfree Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2004 Posts: 506	Well, my technique could definitely be called into account for causing a less dense charge... all sideways movements and "gravity fill". That and my house stays around 45-50% humidity. Yeah, I'll be using an empty case soldered to a brass tube as a custom dipper here shortly. __________________ "If it's rare, strange, or odd, i want it." I drank the cool-aid. Coal Creek Armory

January 25, 2007, 03:26 PM	#8
mjrodney Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 435	For test results on dipper accuracy, see: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ipper+accuracy __________________ Proud supporter of the NRA

January 25, 2007, 03:29 PM	#9
renaissance7697 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 203	I know BUT... I know you said that you intended to "Go Economical" so this comment is probably not on your radar..but I just got to say...................... I recently got one of those RCBS combination Powder dispenser and Electronic scale set ups. It is FANTASTIC ! Punch in the weight desired (buttons) and it both pours it out and confirms the charge quickly and automatically. I know this is not ameniable to a progressive But it sure is elegant and precise when working any scheme involving a "loading block" where you want to hand drop a precise charge of powder into a primed case. ( Like 44 Magnum and .357 MAXIMUM) which I am into now. __________________ An Armed Society, Is a Polite Society.

January 25, 2007, 04:54 PM	#10
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Dippers work great if you do it the same way,every time. The problem is that only very,very meticulous people can do that 50-500 times in a row. I sure can't. That's why most of us use powder throwers. It eliminates some of the possible technique error,making even sloppy technique much more accurate. Get a Lee PPM or Auto Disk. They run about $20-30.

January 25, 2007, 07:56 PM	#12
mjrodney Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 435	But then again, what is a dipper? It's a hole with a bottom you fill with powder by dipping the thing into the unpacked by gravity, loosely packed, top of the powder supply. What is a powder dispenser? It's a hole with a bottom, that slides under, or rotates under, a hopper that fills the hole with powder; albeit, from a supply that is compressed by the weight of it's own mass, unless you have a baffle. There is no difference in Physics here. A hole is a hole. Powder fills one, just like it fills the other. Whether you scrape the top of the hole with a playing card, or scrape the top of the hole with a piece of aluminum casting as part of a powder dispenser, the same result occurs. The only difference is time. __________________ Proud supporter of the NRA

January 25, 2007, 08:11 PM	#13
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	I only use Lee Charts for a starting point whether I am using a dipper or an Auto-Disk measure. I always weigh my loads, regardless. For dipping, try just holding the dipper above the powder and with a spoon just pour some powder over the dipper. When heaping full, scrape level with a playing card. This will duplicate fairly closely what happens in a measure. Then just use the dipper that gives you the load you desire. Be sure and weigh the loads at random to see that they are still uniform. __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

January 25, 2007, 08:19 PM	#14
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	The cost of a good scale will pale in comparison to you medical deductable if you blow somethnig up, let alone the value of the gun. If you want to use lee scoops pick a smaller one that runs under and use a powder trickler to bring the scale pan up to weight. It is slow, but you can get whatever you want. If you decide you want to work faster consider a Uniflow with a baffle.

January 26, 2007, 04:02 PM	#16
Oofty Goofty Junior Member Join Date: January 24, 2007 Posts: 2	Quote: There is no difference in Physics here. A hole is a hole. Powder fills one, just like it fills the other. Respectfully... you are wrong. The amount of power in the hopper (overhead weight) or the speed and angle a dipper is moved through the powder are just some of the variables. +1 Also remember that unique is a very large flake powder and the way the flakes fall in relationship to each other varies the charge. It is hard to get consistent throws with Unique even with a powder measure

January 26, 2007, 04:55 PM	#18
mjrodney Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 435	Fellas, I hear ya, and I understand the pure theory of it, but it just hasn't proved out for me using the scale. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ipper+accuracy Not to any practical or discernable level, in any case (no pun intended). I re-check myself periodically, especially when opening a new can of powder. The practical variance has really been nil. I reload a lot of .38's and .45's, 150 to 400 rounds each week, and all my rounds have been the same out of the guns. Recoil is the same, report is the same, and accuracy is the same. Scoop, tap, dump. No attention paid to angle or depth. Scoop, tap, dump. As a result, I never worry about squibs, there is no worry about powder bridging or need for baffles, no worry about static cling and rounds that smell like perfume, and no need for a "powder cop" die or other similar arrangement. Guys, it just works. Plain and simple. __________________ Proud supporter of the NRA

January 28, 2007, 03:27 PM	#19
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	Cheap, and they work. Other than that, I have NO use for the dippers. Dippers can be as consistant as the operator, but for me the question is why bother. They never throw the exact weight listed, and one needs a complete set to have any kind of versatility. A good scale (and a powder trickler) will give you not onlt accuracy, but all the versatility needed. Add a good powder measure, and you are ready for production. I reload for 25 different calibers, and have never used the dipper method. I got my first tools back in the early '70s, and have only upgraded a few of them. As far as I'm concerned, a press, dies, shellholder, scale, powder measure, loading block, manual(s), caliper, and a case lube system are the basic necessities. Going with simpler (and less expensive) tools is just too labor intensive for me. Lee sells alot of the dippers, but every serious reloader I have ever known has tossed/sold/stashed them as soon as they got a scale and a measure. I have also used fixed charge powder measures (RCBS), and I don't care much for them either. Somehow it always works out that the charge weights that work the best in my guns is never what the rotor or dipper throws. Close, but not the same. And if I am going to have to weigh charges and add a bit to make the loads I want, then the adjustable measure is the only way to go. Now, if you're happy with what you get from dippers, by all means use them. I prefer more control and capability, and am willing to spend a bit more to get it. And, consider this, your time is worth something too. If you figure your time at your hourly wage, and then apply it to the cost of reloaded ammo, it gets a bit more expensive. Also, the money spent on a good scale and powder measure, and trickler (or even the electronic combination units, if an investment that last a long time. If cared for properly, your tools will be doing their job correctly 30 years down the road. I am certain of this, as mine have. You can screw them up, you can allow them to be ruined (rust, etc.) but you can not wear them out easily. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 29, 2007, 07:52 PM	#20
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	If you are using Lee dippers then I would have thought you'd get the Lee help data files. In them, there is a procedure for using Lee dippers, corrected for powder density. There can be quite a varience in density in any powder from one lot to the next. Lee bushings and dippers and load data for them are allegedly caculated for an average denisty of whatever powder. Flake powders are, if you will excuse the pun, the most flakey, densitywise. I have a bottle of Red Dot that is very close to the allowed 16% limit, light. I have a jug of Unique that is 7% light and a jug of H335 that is 1% heavy. Until and unless you learn how to measure powder density, you will continue to get odd and puzzling results with dippers, even if you are careful to always use them as Richard Lee recommens in his book "Modern Reloading." In order to accurately and easily measure powder density, you need a scale that measures in grams and dippers that measure in cc. Then just follow the regular calculations to determine density, keeping in mind that 1 gram = 1 cc = 1mL of water (the standard for density) D= V/W __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

January 30, 2007, 10:09 AM	#21
qajaq59 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2005 Posts: 139	Problem solved. Use any dipper, or a "tea spoon" for that matter, then weigh charge on an accurate scale...... Especially with Unique. You over charge with that stuff in a rifle and you're in for a heap of hurting.