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Old January 25, 2010, 06:38 PM   #26
Hook686
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Very noble and heroic. I hope if this old man finds himself in such a situation that some young whipper-snaper, such as yourself, is close by to step in and help an old man. I would not do such a heroic thing. I am just an old man and would not have a chance. Additionally I live in California and such a scenario would surely clean out all my remaining assets and I'd find myself incarcerated on the public tab.

I admire your heroic effort, but also consider it rather foolish. It reminds me of the heros that charged an entrenched machine gun position, won a Bronze Star, and were then buried with full honors. Very noble, but I was secretly glad it was them and not me.

Again I applaud your courage and good effort to help an old man.
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Old January 25, 2010, 06:47 PM   #27
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I'm always carrying something, generally a Spyderco, as someone famous once said "if you are more than 5 seconds from a gun (weapon) you are unarmed." But keys work as does fighting with the same intent being wrought on you. Eye pokes or gouges work best as does a hit to the adams apple. Punches, unless you practice regularly and know what you are doing are marginal at best as is the kick or kneeing the gonads, many people just end up kicking the dude in the ass. Another good tool to use are your elbows, against temples, noses, collar bones, these hurt like hell.
When would I have drawn & fired? As soon as the fool started his rush. But my knife would have been in my hand the whole time.
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Old January 25, 2010, 08:57 PM   #28
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Shafter,

The LEO didnt say anything to me other than get my statement. I didn't do anything but get whaled on. He said it was my lucky day bc bloods in that area would normally have a gun and would have shot me.

For those that say i was stupid, maybe, but I can't imagine what would have happened to that man if he would have gotten kicked in the head as many times as I did. At the time I wasn't married and didn't have a kid. I wouldnt be able to live with myself if I had walked away. Its not heroic its just being one of the good guys. I still take a lot of satisfaction in knowing that me and the old fella won. we didn't give in and they bad guys were arrested.
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Old January 25, 2010, 11:10 PM   #29
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Ahhh but it was heroic. Yout stepped out above and beyond the call of duty. You put yourself in harms way and could have been killed, or crippled. For an unkown old man you risked your life. My hat is off to you.
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Old January 26, 2010, 07:29 AM   #30
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Maybe it was stupid but it would have been far more stupid to just stand and watch an old man get beaten or killed.
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Old January 26, 2010, 09:02 AM   #31
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Quote:
Maybe it was stupid but it would have been far more stupid to just stand and watch an old man get beaten or killed.
Without doubt the op acted heroically. Additionally, the situation ended well for all involved. With that said, knowing that gangbangers are armed far more often than not, and knowing the completely amoral nature of gangbangers, getting involved in the manner that the op did, increased the risks to the old man and introduced grave risks to himself. Had the gangbangers been armed, they would have killed the op, then killed the old man. They would not have thought twice about it. Let's not mistake a ton of bravery and a mega-ton of luck, for a wise choice.
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Old January 26, 2010, 11:39 AM   #32
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The uncertainty of what to do, with the magnitude of the possible/probable profound consequences no matter what the outcome if I insert a gun into the situation, are exactly why I don't go about armed all the time, and take a self-preservation only perspective when I do.

I'm a 67 year old arthritic overweight old guy in sedentary physical shape, all of which would bring the gun out sooner than if I were a healthy, robust young man. I know my limits exactly, I've objectively considered the cost vs benefits ratio of being armed, and so I carefully choose when and where I go out in public with a gun aboard, with the commitment to limit my use of it only for self defense or defense of someone I'm directly responsible for. I've not gotten it wrong in 38 years of doing it that way.

I'd love to go about rescuing people in distress and righting wrongs, but I'm not powerful enough in strength, wisdom, prescience or reflexes to be absolutely confident I'd succeed at bringing a win-win outcome for victims and myself, and I'm not obligated to do so because I've no sworn duty to do so, especially when the real effects of my efforts run the risk of costing me and others more than I could afford, of health, treasure and/or legal status.
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Old February 5, 2010, 09:35 AM   #33
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1. Observe what is going on to be sure you need to involve yourself.

2. Call 9-1-1 from your cell phone and report what is going on. Be sure of your location and pay attention to the operators questions.

3. Seek cover and be prepared to draw your firearm.

4. From cover issue a verbal challenge to your assailants, making sure you are clear that the police are enroute and that your are armed.

"Stop. The police are on the way. I have a gun. You need to leave now."

If the assailants decide to confront you, you are behind cover with the cavalry coming. You might consider a warning shot if you can fire one safely and are sure of your backstop. Police in most jurisdictions don't have this option, but they can be effective. The reason they are preying on an old man is because they are cowards. When confronted with a foe who seems to be confident and prepared I am sure you will see them fade into the dark like the bottom-feeding rats they are.

And be sure you are familiar with the laws governing self-defense in your state. The difference between an award and an indictment can be simple geography.
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Old February 5, 2010, 10:58 AM   #34
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Me personally, I would have done this:

-Call 911, place them on speaker phone, place phone in my shirt pocket.

-Give the operator details while getting my weapon out.

-Find a tactical position and aim my weapon at the thugs

-Tell them, for their benefit and for the 911 operator, that I have a weapon, and am prepared to use deadly force to protect the life the victim being assaulted.

Obviously, I wasn't there, and I am typing this calmly at my keyboard with no adrenaline pumping...but this is the type of situation I play out in my head quite often.

Regardless, you are a good man. I'm proud of you for the actions you took that day. 90% of the population wouldn't have done anything and that old man would probably not be here today to talk about it.
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Old February 5, 2010, 02:46 PM   #35
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Respected Sir,

As a citizen, thank you for your brave actions. More people like you are needed.

My reaction:

1. Use phone to call the police.
2. Draw weapon and take aim at the leader.
3. When I am near enough for them to clearly hear me, issue command "Leave now!"
4. Case one: they flee. Situation solved.
5. Case two: any/all of them move toward the old man or me, he gets COM double tapped.
6. If they reach me, sorry belly me!

Bottom line is that, as the OPoster has clearly stated with his actions, if you're going to defend other person's life with your own, only those things are paramount. The rest (trials, lawyers, maybe jail, etc.) are inevitable consequences of living in society.

Didn't mean to offend anyone.
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Old February 5, 2010, 03:06 PM   #36
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boykinhntr

Sir, I doff my hat to you, your actions were those of a brave and carrying person. I believe I would have drawn my revolver when the thugs did not leave with your verbal warning. As the life of another was in direct danger, I would have approached the gentleman in danger advising his attackers that if they did not retreat I would consider my life and the life of another in danger and I would act accordingly.

Again a tip of the hat to you!
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Old February 5, 2010, 03:38 PM   #37
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If it happens again you will have a cell phone with you, won't you?

Don't leave the gun in your holster. Getting in between a victim and assailants means you are close enough for the assailants to man handle you, keeping you from drawing your weapon.

Yell loudly and brandish the weapon, making sure the assailants see it. Do not get close enough to the assailants so that they can successfully rush you.

There was a case in Seattle were a man told some youths to watch their language. He told them he was armed. They rushed him, took his gun and beat him senseless.

Last edited by Buzzcook; February 6, 2010 at 01:58 AM.
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Old February 5, 2010, 03:58 PM   #38
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I will say, that is a very herioc thing that you did. Not a lot of people are willing to put their lives on the line for someone else, especially when the danger is so great. You acted on instinct and fortunately luck was on your side. Had the cops NOT have been there, I'm sure no one would hear of this story.

I just purchased my hangun a few days ago, it's my first one. I will say that I have done a lot of research when to draw your weapon, and you only do it when your life is being threatened. Other than that, keep it holstered. I would have done it the same time that everyone else would have, the moment they charged, or for me it would be any moment I feel my life is being threatened and I can not run away.

Someone mentioned they would have yelled that they had a gun. I would not do that only because if those gangbangers were carrying as well, they would have for sure pulled it on you, and you'd be 6ft under. So it's a good thing you didn't yell that out. When there are 4 of them, they are more afraid of the cops than one person with a gun. Also, be really cautious about helping someone out mainly because had the police not have been there, you and the elder gentleman may have been seriously injured or even killed.

If I were in your situation, I would have driven to the nearest payphone in a public area and called the police. Either that or I would have looked for some police cars. I wouldn't have yelled that the police were on their way, at least not unless I'm in my car and ready to drive off. Reason for this is gamble, you don't know if the sudden fear would cause the fools to kill the elder man so if the cops were on their way, then they couldn't be identified.

I firmly believe in one big lesson in life; Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. At this moment, as long as you are alright and so is the other man, and those ruthless thugs are thinking about their lives behind cold steel bars.

Last edited by phattacorider; February 5, 2010 at 04:05 PM.
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Old February 5, 2010, 08:11 PM   #39
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This kinda thing happens here in UK all the time now. People walk past and would leave. Because if they intervine and use force and hurt attacker they will end up in court on wrong side of law. We are not allowed to defend ourselves as you are. We cannot "carry" a licensed weapon or even use for our defence. Knife crime is our largest killer but guns are catching up. Our government believes that to stop law abiding citizens having access to guns it will stop the unlawfall from using them, as in the great words of Homer, "DOH" Do they not realise the criminal does not apply for a gun license.


Anyway an example:

A farmer saw his tractor being taken at night
He called 999 (911) and was told no cars available to help
His reaction to say his brother was chasing thief in his car with shotgun
Within 5 mins 3 police cars arrive, arrest brother with gun, fully licensed I add.
Conclusion: Thief stopped in tractor by police let off with verbal warning
Farmers brother cautioned for using threatning behavier and looses gun license for 2 years and then will prob not get back.


Sorry but I have strayed from the orig question but wanted you to know how it is here.

I wish you all well.
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Old February 5, 2010, 09:29 PM   #40
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Thanks guys, I really like this forum because we can all read about situations and have a plan BEFORE put it these situations. At the time, I did not react calmly with a plan...I just reacted. I am happy I did and I do not regret it one bit BUT luck was on my side that day.

You all have given me some great ideas on how to better handle this type of situation.

Let me say, that this particular day was going smooth as butter up until this incident. My point is you never know when it will happen. Don't carry only when you feel you are going into a rough area or situation. I never expected this to happen...especially on the day it did.
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Old February 5, 2010, 10:33 PM   #41
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Wow, that is a tough one. I would assume all 4 were armed. I would have second guesses about pulling my wheelgun. I am glad you are OK, brave stuff, life is cheap out there man, be careful.
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Old February 6, 2010, 07:52 AM   #42
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You have courage, but a dead hero is of little use if both of you were killed, but under the circumstances it turned out OK. You may well have become a statistic and are fortunate the bloods didn't come looking for blood after the incident.

Have car with bumper, ( have gun will travel ) I may have used my vehicle to intervene if possible, also blowing the horn to no end. I understand a car is a deadly weapon also, but I wouldn't be trying to kill them just use the car as a barrier if possible. I carry a few items in my car besides my weapon when less lethal devices are called for. A difficult call under any circumstances and a little old man has renewed faith in mankind.
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Old February 6, 2010, 11:24 AM   #43
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There's a lot of "paralysis by analysis" thinking in this thread. There's NOT TIME in such a scenario to wonder about every random "what if". That leads to inaction, and possibly a dead or severely injured old man.

Read this excellent article from Kathy Jackson, who posts as "Pax" on this forum.: "Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy"

From the article: You may legally use deadly force only when there is an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.

If the scenario you described met the standard of the bolded text above, then usually* you would be within the law to shoot the four gangbangers, and keep shooting them until the attack stopped.

In a perfect world, here's what I, from my internet armchair, think you should have handled it, given the details you provided. Disclaimer- I know I'm safe in my home, and have had time to think about it, neither luxury you enjoyed in the heat of the moment.

You see the four thugs assaulting the old man.

1) Check your pocket for the cell phone.
It isn't there.
2) Look around.
What is everyone else doing? Are there potential witnesses? Do those potential witnesses appear to be involved with either party? Is somebody video taping so they can put the gang beating on YouTube? Basically, just look for things that are out of place, that could present an additional threat to you.
3) Get the cavalry.
If there are bystanders, pick ONE person, make eye contact with them, and instruct them in no uncertain terms to call 911. Don't just yell it at a crowd - no one will act. Pick somebody and make sure they know it's their job.
4) Move in.
Watching your six, move towards the attackers, using whatever cover you can, while drawing your firearm from concealment. If it's a semi, tap to make sure the magazine is firmly seated, and deactivate any safeties.
If you're one of those guys who carries the pipe empty, this would be a great time to turn your club into a gun. Facing four-plus adversaries, you'll also be wishing for that +1
5) Engage.
If possible, remain behind cover such as the engine bay of a parked car, and yell LOUDLY, so the bangers (and any witnesses present) can hear, say something like "Stop right now! The police are on their way! Back away from him right now or I'll shoot!" Point your gun directly at the closest threat, while keeping tabs on the other three. Keep them all in front of you.
6) KEEP YOUR HEAD ON A SWIVEL.
At this point, tunnel vision almost an inevitability. Gangbangers run in packs. The four in front may be undergoing an initiation while senior members watch from an alley. There may be other allies around who are armed.
7) Decision time for the BGs - At this point, one of three things will happen:
a) They flee: Keeping your head on a swivel, help the old man to his vehicle and personally drive him out of there to the nearest hospital.
b) They posture and hold their ground: Maintain your cover, or move to cover while keeping your gun ready. REMAIN AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS. Continue to order them to leave and remind them loudly that the police are on their way. DO NOT shoot them at this point unless they move to continue to the attack or try to attack you. They will likely flee when sirens become audible.
c) They attack: Shoot the closest threat, and continue to shoot anyone who attacks you until the attack ends. If you're able, get the old man to his car and get out of there FAST.
Great respect to you - you probably saved a man's life, at the expense of your own health. I'm glad you made it through, and thanks for being a hero that day.
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Old February 6, 2010, 09:37 PM   #44
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I am glad there are people like you in this country man! I think very highly of you for what you did! I agree with alot of what others have said and with the way they would have gone about handling the situation.

If it were me i would have(im leaven out the dailing of 911 as others did since u didnt have a phone)

A. checked my surroundings for other witneses and closest decent cover(if there were other people id instruct them to call 911)

B. DRAW MY PISTOL from cover and sight in closest BG(whether the closest one was the leader or not wouldnt matter to me! id start with who ever was closest and if i had to start shooting id work my way from closest to farthest! unless one drew a gun then id take out the bigest thret to my life first)

C. AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE advise the BG's that im armed and the cops are on the way and to get away from the old man NOW!

Hopefully they would leave,but if they started to charge me it would be them or me in my mind,and 4 gangbangers would take a dirt nap!

I am very much like you and could not let myself watch an old man(or any innocent person)be pummeled to death by 4 worthless low lives. I know there are people on here who would say im foolish to,but i couldnt look myself in the mirror if i stood by and watched an old man get beat to death and not do any thing about it. I have allways been this way and any one who knows me knows it. my mother told me she was glad i couldnt join the military like i allways dreamed i would(im blind in my right eye)cause she knew id be the one who threw myself on a hand grenade to save my buddys she was rite to!!! I would have!!

all the best man
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Old February 6, 2010, 10:34 PM   #45
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Great advice guys! As for the hero talk, I think most ppl would have done the same.

I just saw a show today that had a tactical training school for conceal carry within 2 hrs of me. I am going to call on Monday and see what it's about. I would like some training and worst case scenerio it would be fun to put 500rounds through a course!
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Old February 6, 2010, 11:58 PM   #46
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LOL I just found this quote and it relates to this topic very well! Also I find it very funny and true! "Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. I may get killed with my own gun,but he's going to have to beat me to death with it 'cause its going to be empty" HA

-Clint Smith
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