The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 26, 2012, 10:24 PM   #51
joneb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Location: Central , OR
Posts: 1,888
There are a variety of 38 cal WCs out there, 148gr swaged HBWC BHN around 6 to 8, 148gr swaged BBWC BHN around 6-8 the BBWC can be pushed harder.
And then we have the the cast WC BHN 12-15ish they are mostly found in the DEWC or BNWC configurations I prefer the latter.
These 148gr BNWC with a BHN of 15 can pushed much harder than the swaged HBWC as used for target loads, so when I think of the 38spl snubnose loaded with WCs it may be a different animal.
joneb is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 04:55 PM   #52
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
Quote:
As has already been mentioned there are several loads that take the 38Spl out of the so-called "marginal" category into serious self-defense territory even when shot from a 2" snubbie.

Quote:
.38 Special

# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%

Quote:
.357 (both magnum and Sig)

# of people shot - 105
# of hits - 179
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61%
You may not think that such a small percentage matters, but when bad people are doing bad things I want every advantage I can get.

Quote:
A long proven cartridge in an easily concealed, simple to operate and ultra-reliable platform that every novice I have introduced to the snubbie has been able to shoot accurately enough at common self-defense distances...well, I most certainly disagree with your notion that the "snubbie is an expert's gun".
Define "common self-defense distances" and "shoot accurately enough". That is probably where we differ on opinion. I consider that minimum proficiency with any gun is to be able complete and pass an LE type qualification course. I do not feel that a 10" group at 10 yards under no stress to be proficient.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 07:21 PM   #53
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,840
I wouldn't call 10" at 10 yards with no stress involved to be very proficient either. Any decent snubbie will do considerably better than that. They are harder to shoot well though. Light weight, short sight radius, abbreviated grip in almost every case, and in most cases a stiff double action pull. These things add up to a reliable concealable revolver that is more difficult to hit fast and well with.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 07:33 PM   #54
amd6547
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2,313
..."I consider that minimum proficiency with any gun is to be able complete and pass an LE type qualification course..."

I don't agree. I doubt that half the folks in the "armed citizen" column every month in the American Rifleman could meet that standard. Yet, they defend themselves.
__________________
The past is gone...the future may never happen.
Be Here Now.
amd6547 is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 11:00 PM   #55
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,840
Proficient in accurate shooting, and being willing to shoot another person are two separate things.

One can adequately defend oneself if he is willing and able to pull the trigger at the right time even if he is a poor marksman, maybe. One can not adequately do the same if he is a superb marksman who hesitates or can not pull that trigger. Being willing to come out the other end no matter what is the most of it. Being a decent shot improves the odds considerably.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 11:12 PM   #56
Chris9472
Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 99
To put the subject back on topic:

1. Is the general consensus that semi-wadcutters are a good choice as long as they are hollow points?

2. What's the difference between SWC, and just plain old wadcutters?

3. I've heard a lot about them, but I've never seen SWC ammo at any of the LGS in my area. where can I get some good, proven ones for SD?

4. There are a lot of new .38spl ammo types out there. Do SWC's still hold their own against Hornady CD, Speer Gold Dots, etc.?
Chris9472 is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 12:38 AM   #57
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
Here is an example of a killer wadcutter
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=36-155W-D.png
Notice the max meplat aka "nose"
Here is a SWC
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=36-160A-D.png
Here is a LSWC HP
Mouse Gun Addict Blog article 6-9-2012
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...grain-lhp.html
Article from Handguns.com .38 SWC by Glen E. Fryxell
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=24

Here are some choices from Midway USA - all good
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/136...tter-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/171...heck-box-of-20
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/548...oint-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/235...tter-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/929...tter-box-of-20

I would use the 150 grain Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter

Last edited by jmortimer; November 28, 2012 at 12:46 AM.
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 01:17 AM   #58
Chris9472
Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 99
Quote:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/929...tter-box-of-20

I would use the 150 grain Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter
Thanks for the info, but why woudl I want to use this target wadcutter for SD? Shouldn't I be using a hollow point?
Chris9472 is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 02:50 AM   #59
joneb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Location: Central , OR
Posts: 1,888
Quote:
why woudl I want to use this target wadcutter for SD? Shouldn't I be using a hollow point?
The answer to your question is adequate penetration.
A target WC bullet is just that, the velocity that it moves at makes all the difference.
joneb is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 11:18 AM   #60
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
That ain't your mama's "target wadcutter" - That load is a beast.

"Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches ) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel."

I've seen tests where it shoots through two feet of ballistic gelatin.

Here is Brass Fetcher video of "soft" Federal 148 grain "target wadcutter" for a J frame 642 wwith 2" barrel blowing through 12" of 20% ballistic gelatin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=iolV5KOUtsc

The Buffalo Bore is hard cast and will punch through any human target.

Last edited by jmortimer; November 28, 2012 at 11:25 AM.
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 02:18 PM   #61
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,525
Quote:
Thanks for the info, but why woudl I want to use this target wadcutter for SD? Shouldn't I be using a hollow point?

The reason someone might choose a wadcutter is consistent performance. At low velocities or through heavy clothing, some hollow points don't expand when fired from a snubby. If a hollow point doesn't expand, it acts like round nose bullet. A wadcutter offers slightly more tissue damage than a round nose bullet and it won't be clogged with clothing.
There are several hollow point plus p rounds that offer good performance in the .38 special but there are only a few good standard pressure hollow points. Someone limited to standard pressure .38 Special could do worse than choosing a wadcutter for their snubby.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 04:05 PM   #62
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
Quote:
Someone limited to standard pressure .38 Special could do worse than choosing a wadcutter for their snubby.
The only thing I can see worse is a LRN.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 04:36 PM   #63
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,525
How about a hollow point that doesn't expand and acts like a LRN?
2damnold4this is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 01:28 PM   #64
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
Quote:
How about a hollow point that doesn't expand and acts like a LRN?
That sir is why I do not carry a 38.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 08:51 PM   #65
joneb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Location: Central , OR
Posts: 1,888
Quote:
How about a hollow point that doesn't expand and acts like a LRN?
That's why I carry a hot loaded hardcast WC or SWC in my S&W model 36.
joneb is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 10:17 PM   #66
boattale
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2012
Posts: 118
Do NOT shoot me with a .38 LWC. You don't want to see me angry.
boattale is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 10:53 PM   #67
Chris9472
Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 99
Quote:
That's why I carry a hot loaded hardcast WC or SWC in my S&W model 36.
What's the major difference between WC and SWC. Which one is better? And why are they called wadcutters? Because they cut wads in stuff?

Last edited by Chris9472; November 29, 2012 at 11:36 PM.
Chris9472 is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 11:05 PM   #68
Super Sneaky Steve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2011
Posts: 1,245
Quote:
What's the major difference between WC and SWC. Which one is better? And why are they called wadcutters? Because they cut wads in stuff?
If you look at the links in this thread you'll see. Or spend five minutes on google and it will be apparent.

Balistically at higher speeds and longer distances a SWC will stabilize better. This is ideal for hunting and works good on people too.

The full WC is good up close, it's used for targets because it makes a nice clean hole in paper. Because of this most commercial ammo is loaded for best accuracy which is usually at a lower velocity.

To get one that's best for SD you need to buy something made for it, like the Buffalo Bore ammo linked above or make it yourself.

The problem with loading it yourself is there isn't a lot of hot data out there for it and most or all of the bullet is set deep within the case. Because of that the volume for powder is reduced so loads need to be kept moderate or risk going over pressure.
Super Sneaky Steve is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 11:36 PM   #69
Chris9472
Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 99
Quote:
If you look at the links in this thread you'll see. Or spend five minutes on google and it will be apparent.

Balistically at higher speeds and longer distances a SWC will stabilize better. This is ideal for hunting and works good on people too.

The full WC is good up close, it's used for targets because it makes a nice clean hole in paper. Because of this most commercial ammo is loaded for best accuracy which is usually at a lower velocity.

To get one that's best for SD you need to buy something made for it, like the Buffalo Bore ammo linked above or make it yourself.

The problem with loading it yourself is there isn't a lot of hot data out there for it and most or all of the bullet is set deep within the case. Because of that the volume for powder is reduced so loads need to be kept moderate or risk going over pressure.
I looked at the threads but was still confused. Some had hollow points, some looked like they were tucked all the way into the brass, etc.

Do the 158gr SWC JHP generally have less recoil then other types?
Chris9472 is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 06:15 AM   #70
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 8,563
Quote:
Do the 158gr SWC JHP generally have less recoil then other types?
Do you mean 158 gr SWC and 158 gr JHP?

As far as I know, there is no such beast as a semi wadcutter jacketed hollow point (SWC JHP).
There does exist however a semi wadcutter hollow point SWCHP.
A semi wadcutter (SWC) is a lead bullet with no jacket.
One of the most popular is what's commonly called the FBI load - a 158 gr lead semi wadcutter hollow point loaded to ~ 10% over SAAMI .38spl pressures. You'll see it abbreviated as a +P 158 gr LSWCHP.

Anyhow - recoil is a result of the bullet's velocity - for every action there's an equal reaction - more than bullet weight.
A slow stepping 158 gr bullet, regardless of it's configuration, will have less felt recoil than a fast stepping 125 gr bullet.

Push both at the same velocity though and, the heavier bullet with more mass is going to have more felt recoil.

However - that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Generally, a slower burning powder is used for a heavier bullet and a faster buring powder is used for a lighter bullet - not always, but, generallly.
A slower burning powder will have more of a "push" than a "snap" since it accelerates the bullet slower.


Steve is correct. The wadcutter has a poor ballistic coefficient (BC).
Think of the BC as "streamlined". A sports car is more streamlined than a sedan.- while it's not the same thing - it's the best way to get the idea across in the least amount of typing. Whole volumes have been written on BC.
Another advantage the SWC has over the WC is that the "point" helps guide the bullet into the chamber allowing for faster more positive reloads.
WC's are nearly impossible to use with a speedloader.
SWC's are worlds better - but - because of the sharp shoulder on the bullet, they can also hang up.

The SWC profile is generally preferred over the WC for those reasons.
It offers some of the advantages of the WC and some of the BC advantages of the round nose lead bullet.

An extremely good source of this type of information is the Lyman reloading manual and the Speer reloading manual. There's a wealth of information in them beyond just listing recipies.
That's one of the big reasons I push so hard for new shooters to get into reloading ASAP.
Hal is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 11:38 PM   #71
joneb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Location: Central , OR
Posts: 1,888
Quote:
As far as I know, there is no such beast as a semi wadcutter jacketed hollow point (SWC JHP).
Speer once made a .357 semi jacketed 160gr SWC and a 146gr semi jacked SWCHP. I haven't seen them for while, but they do turn up now and then.
joneb is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 07:23 AM   #72
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 8,563
Quote:
Speer once made a .357 semi jacketed 160gr SWC
OMG - how in the name of all that's holy could I have forgotten the Speer half jacket bullet???!!!?
Early on in my reloading foray, I made the mistake of downloading one of those in .44mag.
It shed it's jacket in the barrel of my Virgianin Dragoon.
Thanks for that memory jog!.
Hal is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 06:58 PM   #73
KenW.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2004
Posts: 163
Wadcuters are for making nice, round,easy to score holes in paper.

there are bonded, controlled expansion hollow points like the Gold Dot that are for living, breathing threats.

That's not to say that I'd stand still and let myself get shot with a wadcutter; or anything else for that matter.
KenW. is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 07:11 PM   #74
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,525
Is there a standard pressure Gold Dot load for snubbies? I know there is an excellent 135 gr +P load for short barreled revolvers is available.

DocKGR has recommended the standard pressure Hornady 110 gr Critical Defense load but I'm not sure if there are other standard pressure JHP loads that reliably expand available.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 10:24 PM   #75
Laz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 1999
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Is there a standard pressure Gold Dot load for snubbies?
Speer used to list a standard pressure 125 grain Gold Dot. I've never actually seen it anywhere. I don't know if it is still catalogued.

Edited to add:

Just checking, I can't find it on the current Speer web site.
__________________
Laz

I’m just a nobody, trying to tell everybody, about Somebody, who can save anybody.
Laz is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.13715 seconds with 10 queries