Type 99 Arisaka MUM and date question

[racerzeke]

Is there a way to guestimate the manufacture date by the serial number? By the markings on mine I have determined it is a Nagoya Series 6. But can I narrow down the manufacture date by the serial? Also I have seen a lot of the 'mums' either completely grounded off or almost intact. Mine looks like there are distinct chisel marks I'm not sure if it's just from wear and tear or has some sort of meaning? Any help would be appreciated! Thanks so much.

[tahunua001]

there was a book written by a fellow named Don Voigt that from what I've read, can get you within 3 months of manufacture. just going off of a wild arsed guess your 6th series of 12 made at Nagoya from 1939 to 1945 I would guess it to be somewhere in 1942...

your mum was probably done with a bayonet and a rock, it is defaced but by someone that didn't have a grinder handy. there is no way that this was the result of accidental abuse... then again I have been wrong before.

[scrubcedar]

Racerzeke, tahuna is probably right about how the 'mum was defaced. Here is a quote from a site that seems to have good info "Most people that have looked at Japanese rifles have noted that the mum on most of them has been defaced. For years collectors thought that General MacArthur had ordered their removal before the rifles could be shipped home. No documentation has ever been found to support this. After the interview of numerous WW2 Japanese veterans it is now known that the Japanese military ordered the defacing of the mum before the rifles were surrendered. The Chrysanthemum (mum) was the sign of ownership by the Emperor."

I'm not an expert on Japanese rifles but this guy does seem to know his stuff.
http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/arisaka1.html

[James K]

Surrendered how? It is reasonably certain that when rifles were taken from depots in Japan and some other areas and turned over to the allies, Japanese workmen were allowed (by MacArthur) to deface the imperial "mon" to allow the Emperor to save face by not having his crest disgraced.

But the idea that Japanese who were captured or killed in action carried grinders around so they could remove the "mum" as they fell, seems a bit unlikely. True, field troops who knew they were going to die might have marked through the mon with a bayonet, but it seems more likely to have been done to surrendered rifles when no better method was available.

A lot of silly stories surround that issue. The most ludicrous was the vet who told me how he captured his Type 99 in hand to hand combat with Tojo himself. When I asked about the ground crest, he said the rifle had the "mum" when he brought it back, but Harry Truman kept track of all those rifles and sent the FBI to seize the gun; when they brought it back the crest had been ground!!!

Jim

[scrubcedar]

If you look at the attachment in the original post it looks like someone of limited means but quite a bit of determination defaced it. The type of marks you'd expect an infantryman in the field to make.
That being said, I'm having real trouble finding proof of the stories about this. I'd love to get in a long debate with you about this James, but since it appears I'm wrong, we'll have to argue about the next one.

[2ndsojourn]

In addition to being damaged or defaced, to me it looks like the mum was double struck. Parts of the petals are visible at the top and the edges of the petals on the right are cut deeper.

I don't know Arisakas enough to help with the serial number.

[madcratebuilder]

A lot of silly stories surround that issue. The most ludicrous was the vet who told me how he captured his Type 99 in hand to hand combat with Tojo himself. When I asked about the ground crest, he said the rifle had the "mum" when he brought it back, but Harry Truman kept track of all those rifles and sent the FBI to seize the gun; when they brought it back the crest had been ground!!!

That's priceless!

Some of the stories you hear are just so far out there.

[racerzeke]

A bayonet and rock eh? Never thought of that one. Granted none of this can be verified but I always like to sit and think what this rifle has done or who was holding it before me. I appreciate all of the information fellas

[James K]

Many of those stories seem to have begun when folks began to realize that a ground crest meant a surrendered rifle. But a lot of vets had already told tales of how their souvenir rifles were captured in hand-to-hand combat, so they had to quick invent a story that would explain how the crest was ground.

A common one was that Roosevelt/Truman/MacArthur/Nimitz ordered Americans to grind the crests aboard ship to avoid offending the Japanese. (That was still in the middle of the war - we were killing Japanese but couldn't offend them!!???) Another was that Japanese units carried grinders with them so they could remove the crest before engaging in a "last ditch" battle. (This is a variation of the "bayonet and rock" story.) I heard the "Harry Truman" story from only one vet, but he was so convincing that I could see someone believing it.)

In truth few Japanese rifles brought back were actually combat capture, and even fewer were brought back by the men who captured them. Mostly, the Marines or soldiers who had picked them up on the battlefield from dead Japanese (very few Japanese soldiers surrendered), sold them to sailors on the ships who had the means of bringing them back. For most of the war, troops who had captured one island were shipped on to the next and were in no position to carry two rifles. (And no one was going to throw away his M1 and keep a Type 99 souvenir for fighting!)

Only after the war, when American troops were sent to Japan were large numbers of souvenir rifles made available to Americans, and it is those rifles that are in American collections today.

Handguns were another story. Smaller and easier to carry, many combat captures were tucked into a duffle bag or mailed home (prohibited, but it was fairly common). Of course, many more were also surrendered after the war, but not having a "mum" to grind off, it is not so obvious.

Jim

[Tidewater_Kid]

With the books I have and my own series 5, I would venture to say your Type 99 was manufactured in the last three months of 1943. Japanese rifles are very hard to date correctly.

TK