Need advice on .45acp target loads?

chewie70 · February 12, 2007, 11:57 AM

Hi everyone,

I'm hoping you all can help me out with a little problem that I'm having. Since my last post, I belive I have worked out my problem with periodic hot loads. I am still having problems with what seems to be light loads. These loads are being shot from a Springfield XD service model (4" barrel) .45acp. I am using Speer 185gn TMJ SWC match bullets with Alliant Bullseye powder and Federal 150 large pistol primers. Brass is Winchester once fired (by me). Data for loads is gathered from the lastest edition Speer book. Now for the problem.

With the first loads I made with this configuration, I used the minimum load according to Speer which was 4.5gn. Out of 40 rounds, over 50% jammed on ejection.

On the second loads, I increased to 4.6gn, but still had a 50% jamming upon ejection.

The third batch I created was increased to 4.8gn. With this batch, I only had about a 20% ejection failure rate. The spent shells just don't seem to be flying out, it's more like barely dropping out.

My dilema is, Speer lists the max charge as 4.9gn, which means that I'm almost there, but still having an ejection problem that feels to me like a light load issue. It may be something else, but I'm out of ideas.

Do I try a different bullet (such as a 200gn)? Try a different powder (such as Clays)? Try a different primer (CCI or Winchester)? Change to a lighter spring in my XD (it has the factory one right now, I believe 18#)?

I would really like to use the 185gn bullet, as it seems to be a real tack driver. I'm just kind of at a loss of ideas right now and not sure as to what would make the loads work flawlessly.

I greatly appreciate any inputand thanks to everyone here in advance, you've been so helpfull.

Hammerhead · February 12, 2007, 01:37 PM

A heavier bullet should get you a little more recoil for proper ejection. I'm shooting Hornady 200 grain jacketed SWC's over a leass than max load (5.0, max is 5.2) of Titegroup (great powder).
Recoil is definatly less than factory 230 FMJ's, but they clear the ejection port and land about three feet away.
If you drop the recoil spring too low, that can cause feeding issues, but it wouldn't hurt to try a #16 spring.

rwilson452 · February 12, 2007, 01:50 PM

First the bad news. I don't think there are any after market springs available for the XD45 Service yet. For the Tactical there are. How many rounds have you got out the barrel of your XD? If this is a new pistol, I found mine got a bit better after about 500 rounds. You may find you need to use full power loads for about the first 500 rounds. I would suggest you use a tighter crimp. This will give you a higher initial impulse of pressure and insure more powder is consumed faster. Powder burn rate is effected by pressure and heat. I also might produce less flash and smoke. I prefer W231 and HP38 for my .45ACP loads

chewie70 · February 12, 2007, 01:58 PM

Hammerhead,

Thanks for the input. I think going with a heavier bullet is definately something that I should look into.

HSMITH · February 12, 2007, 02:10 PM

If you are not at the listed OAL for the max load and are loading longer that alone will make a big difference in pressure. You can shorten them up or increase the load to regain the pressure.

I would work them up watching for pressure, you may need a little more powder for that load to function in that gun. It wouldn't bother me even a tiny bit to be a tenth or two over listed max if I worked the load up in my gun and knew there were no pressure signs.

chewie70 · February 12, 2007, 02:19 PM

rwilson452,

Thanks for the advice. I have fired at least 1000 rounds through it. As far as the crimp goes, it's set about as tight as I can get it without collapsing the case. There are no signs of unburnt powder or anything like that. Actually, since I increased the load to 4.8gn, it seems to have a very clean burn compared to when the charge was lower. Not sure if that tells you anything?

Regarding XD parts, it is reallly bad news. I hope they come out with stuff soon, I would hate to have to send my slide back to Springfield, just to replace a recoil spring when the time is due.

JDG · February 12, 2007, 03:57 PM

Isn't 5gr bullseye with 230gr fmj, the old millitary spec load? My Lee load manual shows 6.4-6.7gr bullseye for 185gr fmj. Bump it up!

chewie70 · February 12, 2007, 04:55 PM

Thanks HSmith! My C.O.L. is right at what the Speer book recommends, 1.275" I believe. I'm just a little nervous about going above the max charge, and would just rather find a different combination that works out. The speer book does however mention something for this load, goes something like " the max load is indicated for velocities of 800fps, and does not necessarily mean maximum pressure", or something like that. Not sure how I'm supposed to take that. Does it mean it's ok to go over the max load?

JDG, thanks for the input. The Speer book lists 4.5-4.9gns for that bullet and something like 5.4 or 5.6 for the minimum with a 200gn bullet of the same type. I wonder how much of a difference there is between 185gn TMJ SWC match bullet and a 185gn FMJ bullet?

rwilson452 · February 12, 2007, 05:54 PM

Springfield will send you a new recoil spring assy without returning the pistol. they will sell you a new one for $15 plus shipping. there are some parts they will sell you. if you break yours they will honor the warrentee.

The cleaner burn would indicate to me that the powder likes that load better than the lighter load.

Thanks for the advice. I have fired at least 1000 rounds through it. As far as the crimp goes, it's set about as tight as I can get it without collapsing the case. There are no signs of unburnt powder or anything like that. Actually, since I increased the load to 4.8gn, it seems to have a very clean burn compared to when the charge was lower. Not sure if that tells you anything?

Regarding XD parts, it is reallly bad news. I hope they come out with stuff soon, I would hate to have to send my slide back to Springfield, just to replace a recoil spring when the time is due.

The Real Wyatt · February 12, 2007, 08:23 PM

According to Alliant you can go up to 6.7 grains of Bullseye with that bullet and still be developing less than max pressure. You're just approaching the recommended minimum load.

Check it out:
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...29&bulletid=96

For a comfortable all day shooting load I use 5 grains of Bulleseye in a WLP primered Starline case behind a 230 grain LRN bullet. A very accurate pussycat load.

redhawk41 · February 12, 2007, 10:54 PM

The fine print in the Speer manual for the 185 gr TMJ indicates that the listed loads are for target velocities of 800 fps and not necessarily maximum pressure.

You should be able to work up to a suitable load that will cycle your gun.

If I were you and you were me, I would forget about new springs and such and get a couple second opinions on powder charges of Alliant Bullseye for 185 gr jacketed bullets. The Real Wyatt has given a very good source.

chewie70 · February 13, 2007, 09:14 AM

Thanks rwilson, that's what I was kind of assuming about the clean burn, just wasn't sure.

chewie70 · February 13, 2007, 09:32 AM

Hi The Real Wyatt and redhawk41,

I have looked at the Allliant site in the past. The only problem that I have with that load is that it for for a hollow point and not a SWC, which is what I am using. Does that make a difference? I'm not sure since I'm pretty new to reloading pistol. I never had these issues with rifle, things just always seemed to work out correctly. So I guess my question is..... Are all of the loads for 185gn bullets the same, no matter what style of bullet they are, as long they are the same type such as FMJ, lead, ect....? I'm a little confused with that since it seems like you all are saying to use the same charge of a different type bullet in the same weight class, but the manuals list different charges which vary quite a bit for the different bullets.

simmoag · February 13, 2007, 10:26 AM

i use vaillant 200gr lswc

5gr of green dot
5gr of bullseye

both of these loads have never given me a problem and i shoot almost every weekend.

chewie70 · February 13, 2007, 11:10 AM

Thanks simmoag, I'll keep that in mind if I ever decide to shoot lead.

The Real Wyatt · February 13, 2007, 12:17 PM

Chewie,

Bullet style makes no difference as long as the seating depth is the same. Lead vs Jacketed does make a difference with hotter loads.

Simmoag,

I like Green Dot as well. I've worked up a very nice load for my .45 Colt using Green Dot. I don't know why, but I like the smell of the burnt powder.

chewie70 · February 13, 2007, 01:14 PM

Thanks Real Wyatt, I learn something new every day.

I'll have to pull out the Speer manual when I get home and rethink my loads. It definately opens up more options. One problem that I may run into though is if I remember correctly, the is a c.o.l. difference between the JHP and SWC rounds. I don't remember though and will have to check later.

One thing that I have to question though. If you can use any bullet of the same type (being FMJ, TMJ ect...) and mix and match loads for those as long as the c.o.l. is the same, why does the Speer manual go out of its way to put in bold print " never exceed the maximum charge for a given bullet"? The bullet I am using is the the 185gn TMJ SWC match that has a listed max. of 4.9gn. The same bullet in a hollow point has a max. of 5.5gn (just guessing, don't have it in front of me) or something like that. If it's safe to mix and match, why doesn't Speer list the max. for the SWC at 5.5gn instead of 4.9gn? I'm just trying to make sure that I keep all of my fingers.

HSMITH · February 13, 2007, 01:32 PM

One small correction, bullet type DOES make a difference even when seated to the exact same length. In this case the SWC will have a lower pressure than the JHP would when both bullets are 185's. The JHP bullet is longer and therefor sits deeper in the case than the SWC, less case space means more pressure.

Be cautious with bullet substitutions, it isn't a big deal but it does need to be considered and adjustments made.

chewie70 · February 13, 2007, 01:49 PM

Thanks HSmith!

Does anybody know any good books that get more in depth on building custom loads? The manuals pretty much stick to the basics. Right now, I currently have the following manuals:

Lyman manual ( latest edition)
Lyman pistol manual
Hornady manual ( latest edition)
Speer manual (latest edition)
Nosler manual (latest edition)

What would be good to add to my library?

February 12, 2007, 05:54 PM	#9
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	XD parts Springfield will send you a new recoil spring assy without returning the pistol. they will sell you a new one for $15 plus shipping. there are some parts they will sell you. if you break yours they will honor the warrentee. The cleaner burn would indicate to me that the powder likes that load better than the lighter load. Thanks for the advice. I have fired at least 1000 rounds through it. As far as the crimp goes, it's set about as tight as I can get it without collapsing the case. There are no signs of unburnt powder or anything like that. Actually, since I increased the load to 4.8gn, it seems to have a very clean burn compared to when the charge was lower. Not sure if that tells you anything? Regarding XD parts, it is reallly bad news. I hope they come out with stuff soon, I would hate to have to send my slide back to Springfield, just to replace a recoil spring when the time is due.

February 12, 2007, 10:54 PM	#11
redhawk41 Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2005 Location: Red Desert Posts: 819	The fine print in the Speer manual for the 185 gr TMJ indicates that the listed loads are for target velocities of 800 fps and not necessarily maximum pressure. You should be able to work up to a suitable load that will cycle your gun. If I were you and you were me, I would forget about new springs and such and get a couple second opinions on powder charges of Alliant Bullseye for 185 gr jacketed bullets. The Real Wyatt has given a very good source. __________________ {empty thought cloud}

February 13, 2007, 10:26 AM	#14
simmoag Member Join Date: January 17, 2007 Posts: 68	two loads i use i use vaillant 200gr lswc 5gr of green dot 5gr of bullseye both of these loads have never given me a problem and i shoot almost every weekend.

February 12, 2007, 11:57 AM	#1
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	Need advice on .45acp target loads? Hi everyone, I'm hoping you all can help me out with a little problem that I'm having. Since my last post, I belive I have worked out my problem with periodic hot loads. I am still having problems with what seems to be light loads. These loads are being shot from a Springfield XD service model (4" barrel) .45acp. I am using Speer 185gn TMJ SWC match bullets with Alliant Bullseye powder and Federal 150 large pistol primers. Brass is Winchester once fired (by me). Data for loads is gathered from the lastest edition Speer book. Now for the problem. With the first loads I made with this configuration, I used the minimum load according to Speer which was 4.5gn. Out of 40 rounds, over 50% jammed on ejection. On the second loads, I increased to 4.6gn, but still had a 50% jamming upon ejection. The third batch I created was increased to 4.8gn. With this batch, I only had about a 20% ejection failure rate. The spent shells just don't seem to be flying out, it's more like barely dropping out. My dilema is, Speer lists the max charge as 4.9gn, which means that I'm almost there, but still having an ejection problem that feels to me like a light load issue. It may be something else, but I'm out of ideas. Do I try a different bullet (such as a 200gn)? Try a different powder (such as Clays)? Try a different primer (CCI or Winchester)? Change to a lighter spring in my XD (it has the factory one right now, I believe 18#)? I would really like to use the 185gn bullet, as it seems to be a real tack driver. I'm just kind of at a loss of ideas right now and not sure as to what would make the loads work flawlessly. I greatly appreciate any inputand thanks to everyone here in advance, you've been so helpfull.

February 12, 2007, 01:37 PM	#2
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	A heavier bullet should get you a little more recoil for proper ejection. I'm shooting Hornady 200 grain jacketed SWC's over a leass than max load (5.0, max is 5.2) of Titegroup (great powder). Recoil is definatly less than factory 230 FMJ's, but they clear the ejection port and land about three feet away. If you drop the recoil spring too low, that can cause feeding issues, but it wouldn't hurt to try a #16 spring.

February 12, 2007, 01:50 PM	#3
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	First the bad news. I don't think there are any after market springs available for the XD45 Service yet. For the Tactical there are. How many rounds have you got out the barrel of your XD? If this is a new pistol, I found mine got a bit better after about 500 rounds. You may find you need to use full power loads for about the first 500 rounds. I would suggest you use a tighter crimp. This will give you a higher initial impulse of pressure and insure more powder is consumed faster. Powder burn rate is effected by pressure and heat. I also might produce less flash and smoke. I prefer W231 and HP38 for my .45ACP loads

February 12, 2007, 01:58 PM	#4
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	Hammerhead, Thanks for the input. I think going with a heavier bullet is definately something that I should look into.

February 12, 2007, 02:10 PM	#5
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	If you are not at the listed OAL for the max load and are loading longer that alone will make a big difference in pressure. You can shorten them up or increase the load to regain the pressure. I would work them up watching for pressure, you may need a little more powder for that load to function in that gun. It wouldn't bother me even a tiny bit to be a tenth or two over listed max if I worked the load up in my gun and knew there were no pressure signs.

February 12, 2007, 02:19 PM	#6
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	rwilson452, Thanks for the advice. I have fired at least 1000 rounds through it. As far as the crimp goes, it's set about as tight as I can get it without collapsing the case. There are no signs of unburnt powder or anything like that. Actually, since I increased the load to 4.8gn, it seems to have a very clean burn compared to when the charge was lower. Not sure if that tells you anything? Regarding XD parts, it is reallly bad news. I hope they come out with stuff soon, I would hate to have to send my slide back to Springfield, just to replace a recoil spring when the time is due.

February 12, 2007, 03:57 PM	#7
JDG Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: West Michigan Posts: 673	Isn't 5gr bullseye with 230gr fmj, the old millitary spec load? My Lee load manual shows 6.4-6.7gr bullseye for 185gr fmj. Bump it up!

February 12, 2007, 04:55 PM	#8
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	Thanks HSmith! My C.O.L. is right at what the Speer book recommends, 1.275" I believe. I'm just a little nervous about going above the max charge, and would just rather find a different combination that works out. The speer book does however mention something for this load, goes something like " the max load is indicated for velocities of 800fps, and does not necessarily mean maximum pressure", or something like that. Not sure how I'm supposed to take that. Does it mean it's ok to go over the max load? JDG, thanks for the input. The Speer book lists 4.5-4.9gns for that bullet and something like 5.4 or 5.6 for the minimum with a 200gn bullet of the same type. I wonder how much of a difference there is between 185gn TMJ SWC match bullet and a 185gn FMJ bullet?

February 12, 2007, 08:23 PM	#10
The Real Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: South Central KY Posts: 339	According to Alliant you can go up to 6.7 grains of Bullseye with that bullet and still be developing less than max pressure. You're just approaching the recommended minimum load. Check it out: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...29&bulletid=96 For a comfortable all day shooting load I use 5 grains of Bulleseye in a WLP primered Starline case behind a 230 grain LRN bullet. A very accurate pussycat load.

February 13, 2007, 09:14 AM	#12
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	Thanks rwilson, that's what I was kind of assuming about the clean burn, just wasn't sure.

February 13, 2007, 09:32 AM	#13
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	Hi The Real Wyatt and redhawk41, I have looked at the Allliant site in the past. The only problem that I have with that load is that it for for a hollow point and not a SWC, which is what I am using. Does that make a difference? I'm not sure since I'm pretty new to reloading pistol. I never had these issues with rifle, things just always seemed to work out correctly. So I guess my question is..... Are all of the loads for 185gn bullets the same, no matter what style of bullet they are, as long they are the same type such as FMJ, lead, ect....? I'm a little confused with that since it seems like you all are saying to use the same charge of a different type bullet in the same weight class, but the manuals list different charges which vary quite a bit for the different bullets.

February 13, 2007, 11:10 AM	#15
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	Thanks simmoag, I'll keep that in mind if I ever decide to shoot lead.

February 13, 2007, 12:17 PM	#16
The Real Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: South Central KY Posts: 339	Chewie, Bullet style makes no difference as long as the seating depth is the same. Lead vs Jacketed does make a difference with hotter loads. Simmoag, I like Green Dot as well. I've worked up a very nice load for my .45 Colt using Green Dot. I don't know why, but I like the smell of the burnt powder.

February 13, 2007, 01:14 PM	#17
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	Thanks Real Wyatt, I learn something new every day. I'll have to pull out the Speer manual when I get home and rethink my loads. It definately opens up more options. One problem that I may run into though is if I remember correctly, the is a c.o.l. difference between the JHP and SWC rounds. I don't remember though and will have to check later. One thing that I have to question though. If you can use any bullet of the same type (being FMJ, TMJ ect...) and mix and match loads for those as long as the c.o.l. is the same, why does the Speer manual go out of its way to put in bold print " never exceed the maximum charge for a given bullet"? The bullet I am using is the the 185gn TMJ SWC match that has a listed max. of 4.9gn. The same bullet in a hollow point has a max. of 5.5gn (just guessing, don't have it in front of me) or something like that. If it's safe to mix and match, why doesn't Speer list the max. for the SWC at 5.5gn instead of 4.9gn? I'm just trying to make sure that I keep all of my fingers.

February 13, 2007, 01:32 PM	#18
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	One small correction, bullet type DOES make a difference even when seated to the exact same length. In this case the SWC will have a lower pressure than the JHP would when both bullets are 185's. The JHP bullet is longer and therefor sits deeper in the case than the SWC, less case space means more pressure. Be cautious with bullet substitutions, it isn't a big deal but it does need to be considered and adjustments made.

February 13, 2007, 01:49 PM	#19
chewie70 Member Join Date: January 29, 2007 Posts: 36	Thanks HSmith! Does anybody know any good books that get more in depth on building custom loads? The manuals pretty much stick to the basics. Right now, I currently have the following manuals: Lyman manual ( latest edition) Lyman pistol manual Hornady manual ( latest edition) Speer manual (latest edition) Nosler manual (latest edition) What would be good to add to my library?