30-06 Hornady help!!!!!!

[mako8551]

I have what appears to be a very finicky remmington 700 sps which is only about 2 months old. It shoots 3 MOA with absolutely everything(all high end stuff) and .5 MOA with Hornaday Light mag 150g SST. I'm just getting into reloading and I figure a good starting point is to try and duplicate this load.

The Problem.

All, the factory fired cases showed a finger of sooty deposit on the case neck except the hornady. I heard this is a sign of the pressure not being enough to expand the case neck to seal he chamber.

When I looked up the ballistic data the hornday pushes a 150g bullet at 3100-3200 fps. Far faster than all the others. So I figure this is the extra power that seals the case neck to my funky chamber dimensions.

The question.

What powder and load is Hornady using and I cant seem to find printed safe data for loading a 30-06 150g past 3000 fps.

.30-06 Sprg., 150 gr. SST 8519
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
3100/3200 2867/2736 2645/2330 2434/1973 2233/1660 2041/1387

Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
-1.50 1.40 0.00 -6.40 -18.60 -37.80

[mtnboomer]

The problem you will encounter here is that the data for the Light Magnum loads may be by using a "keg" powder and not a "cannister " powder. The difference is that a keg powder is usually not for sale to the public as it is a specific formulation used only by ammunition manufacturers who buy it in bulk. This is not always the case as some of the newer cannister powders come very close to the kegs in velocity and loading density. You will need to get as many reloading manuals as possible to find the loading you are looking for. DO NOT take anyone's word on a loading or what you read on the internet without cross-referencing it with your manuals. That is a recipe for disaster! Good luck. and remember the three most important words in reloading: SAFETY, SAFETY and SAFETY!

[mako8551]

This was kinda helpfull.

http://www.thehighroad.org/printthread.php?t=120867

[mako8551]

I just cant find any data on this light mag stuff!!

[redbeard55]

You will never reach 3100-3200 fps when reloading for a 30-06 with 150 grain bullets. I choronography my reloads and most of my reloads through a Winchester Model 70 are only 2800 fps - regardless of what the reloading manuals claim. When using Federal brass I can get an extra 100 fps. If you have a rifle with a 26 inch barrel and are using Federal brass, you might break 3,000 fps.

[Paul B.]

Not necesarily true. For one thing, the 30-06 is not loaded to it's full potential. There are too many older rifles such as the 1895 Winchester, 1903 Springfields, etc to allow the factories to do so. Second, there are several semiautomatic rifles chambered to the 30-06 and pressures and burning rates of the powders used must be kept in line for those. Nothing like castrating a great cartridge. :barf:

My point is this. If a Winchester M70, Remington 700, Ruger 77, what have you can take the 60K+ PSI of magnum cartridges, why can't they hold that same pressure ceiling in a 30-06 which would actually have less case thrust than the magnum rounds? Why not indeed? Is one of those rifles chambered to the 30-06 made of less strong materials? I think not.

I ran a chronograph test of one major brand of 30-06 ammo with the 180 gr. bullets in rifles with 22",24" and 26" barrels. I felt the results were shocking.
Even the 26" barreled rifle could not come up to the 2700 FPS advertised velocity. What makes it even worse, using the same brand ammo with 180 gr. bullet in the .308 Win. in a 22" barreled rifle, it was within 10 FPS of the 26" barreled 30-06. FWIW, average of five shots each, 30-06: 22"=2610FPS, 24"=2630 FPS, 26"=2650 FPS. The .308 Win gave 2640 FPS.

The idea that one can go past the data in the manuals was first brought to mind by an article by Bob Hagel in either RIFLE or HANDLOADER Magazine, I forget which, but I can look it up if need be.

Also, gunwriter John Wooters said he reached 3100 FPS with 150 gr. bullets in a custom rifle with 24" barrel with a 1 in12" twist. That twist rate is significant and the standard twist rate for the 30-06 is 1 in 10". The 1 in 12" twist will hepl to keep pressures a bit lower. Mr. Wooter did mention the powder he used but not the charge level. My 24" 30-06 has a 1 in 12" twist, but I've never tried to find Wooter's load as I dropped the 150 gr. bullets in the 30-06 due to too much meat damage on the deer I killed.

One can make a fairly substantial improvement in 30-06 ballisitics by careful handloading, using proper case head measurements and a chronograph. However, to do so, one must go past the data in the manuals, and under those circumstances, you are on your own and in basically uncharted territory. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the people work work up the loads for the manuals really know what can be done with the 30-06. They just ain't telling.
FWIW, I do not recommend going above any data in any manual. If anyone wishes to experiment along these lines, they are on their own. What I have posted is at least feasable in theory.
Paul B.

[mako8551]

All the loading data for the 30-06 is only 60,000psi as maximum safe. This is due to the length of time rifles have been chambered in 30-06. The older guns wouldn't stack up to the pressure. Most newer guns opperate at a max of 65,000. Is there SAFE, tried and true reloading data for brand spankin new modern rifles only????????????

[Unclenick]

The Light Magnums are not a straightforward load. They achieve their velocities without exceeding standard SAMMI pressures. As Hornady states, they are the result of a proprietary loading process, and not just a particular propellant and bullet combination. They claim the process is not safe to publish it because it can be screwed up. I've been told (haven't tried it myself) that if you pull one of these loads apart, the propellant does not pour out; that it is packed in some kind of waxy medium at the front of the case. If that information is correct, it is probably a method of retarding the burning of the front portion of the powder until the bullet gets far enough down the barrel to effectively increase the chamber volume. Thus the pressure curve extends beyond normal. It might also be a phase change material that limits temperature while it turns to gas, which would have the same effect.

As far as your inaccuracy with normal loads is concerned, it is likely the sharper pressure curve rise in conventional powders is initiating barrel whipping. Usually the opposite is true, that slow powders cause inaccuracy by retaining so much pressure at the muzzle that the gas jet that follows the exiting bullet will actually tip it and throw it off course. That the Light Magnum loads don't cause this problem for you says your crown is probably good. Two things to try:

Work your loads up from well below the normal velocities to see if you find a sweet spot on the way? You could also cut the portion of the pressure curve early in the bullet travel by going to a slower powder. Try H4350 or even H4831. You'll have to use more powder and you will get more muzzle flash, but you shoot what works in your gun. In the end, you may need the stock cut out and the action re-bedded. Before you do that, also check that your gun isn't just sensitive to that bullet weight. Try some of the 165 and 180 grain bullets. I like the 175 grain Sierra MatchKing over Varget for accuracy, but you need to experiment for yourself. The longer barrel time of the heavier bullets may alter the vibration favorably.

Nick

[BIGJACK]

I tried some Hornady light mags in 180gr a couple of years ago for elk hunting and found them to be very accurate, consistently -1moa in a Browning SS Stalker.
Same goes for the 165 gr loads.

[Foxman]

+1 on unclenicks advice. Most calibers work best with a particular weight of bullet +/- a few grains and each rifle tends to have a preference for some bullets and not others. The general wisdom for the 30-06 is bullet weights from 165 gr - 180gr work best but developing your own best load for your rifle is part of the pleasure of reloading, it gives a real buzz when you find the one that easily out performs the others and turns a reasonable shooter into a real hummer.

[Pointer]

See Hornady's loading manuals

[Leftoverdj]

When you run across a rifle that finicky you rebed the sucker.

[Harley Quinn]

Check it out by the naked eye with a glass. Check the load, weigh the bullet.

Go to a good loading store and talk to the guy behind the counter show him the powder. You can tell with a magnifying glass and go from there.

If you have to, put it under a microscope but check it out to the max. Could be the brass could be the primers can be many things. Find out as much as you can about that round.

The type of powder and the way it is made will tell you something. Call Hornaday and talk to them, Call Speer and talk to them, call Brownells and talk to them. Get some good opinions and then go back and load up 5 and see what happens.

That is what is fun about reloading, the shooting is the final act. Everything leading up to it is the sport. Just like hunting, killing is the final act.

Harley

[ammunition-man]

no data avabile

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


There won't be data on this, guys. Hornady keeps it proprietary. They will say it is a multi-step process. I ran into a thread on another forum where a fellow is trying to replicate the performance. (So far, without success.) In that thread I learned the information I posted earlier on a waxy substance was incorrect. This fellow disassembled a .308 and said the powder will pour out, but then it expands. He said that pulling the bullet and leaving it in the case, it expands over several hours until the case is overflowing. Very highly compressed.

Some time back, the Cast Bullet Association published work on duplex loads by shooters trying to gain the performance of original black powder loads for trapdoor Springfield rifles, but using smokless powder. They did it by filling the .45-70 case with ultra slow powders, but they had to give it an ignition boost with a couple of grains of Bullseye or 700X placed over the flashole before the rest of the powder went in. This let them cut chamber pressure to 21,000 PSI while still getting a 405 grain lead bullet out of the tube at full speed.

So, part of the trick in trying to replicate the performance of the magnum lights will likely include that kind of complexity and a series of compression rams and maybe a 2 story drop tube to use along the way. That heavy compressing may mean you need to prime after charging so the charging doesn't beat the primer up, but that is dangerous, so you will need to shield the priming operation. The powders used by Hornady are likely to be non-canister powders made or blended to their specifications, so getting that performance out of the available canister powders is not going to be a trivial undertaking, either.

IMHO, this is just enough beyond normal reloading practices and equipment that it is the kind of thing safest to leave to a person who has a pressure barrel and some experience handling explosives.

Nick

[wo55d]

from what it sounds like before i go loading any more rounds or anything i would personally have a gunsmith (or if you have the tools) gauge the head space in the chamber my buddie bought the same gun and had to send it back had the same problem and it simple had to much head space and performed poorly that gun should be grouping fine w/ all the rounds you listed. check the head space this is under warrenty and wont coast you a thing. they sent him a new rifle and now it performs pretty good. thats my thinking because this is the same problem same gun?let me know?

[rocknglock]

Is it really worth the trouble. Think about this, try something easy if your new. I am in the same boat. I own a REM 700 BDL w/ leopold VI 3-9x40. I used all winchester components for my first loads, collet neck sized, I seated the rounds to within .020 of the rifling. and they shoot great, so now I'll try sierra boat tails instead of power point winchester. I know that not much will change. I don't know how fast they are, I do know the guys at the range all say it's load as hell for a .30-06, we shoot a bowling pins from 100-150yds and I have no problems. why pull your hair out over 300fps. I will not make you shoot better. like the guy said, rebed that, or buy the hogue OM stock w/full bed block. I have heard that that'll do wonders. I highly doubt that after all this trouble you'll shoot any better. go to the range and practice. That I can assure will tighten your groups!

[ZeroJunk]

I don't think the powder residue on the neck means anything.That cartridge headspaces on the shoulder at a datum line where the diameter is .375 .If it is clean from the shoulder back,I would not be concerned about a dirty neck.

[amamnn]

There are several loads that will chrono above 2900 fps regularly for the .30-06. As someone mentioned, see the Hornady MANUAL. It's worth buying. Also the Sierra Manual is worth buying and has several loads above 2900 listed. I have chrono'ed loads from both and they are telling the truth. It might be worth noting that there are several variables that might cause other factory loads to shoot differently in your gun, bullet design and seating being two good possibilities. Too, you may find as many have done, that the hottest, fastest load is not the most accurate.

I find it amusing and ironic when I see a post from someone trying to duplicate a factory load. It used to be the other way around. Still, since factory ammo makers have learned from the benchrest community to blend powders, it's getting harder to match their loads. Fortunately, you can still exceed them if you learn the craft of handloading and are willing and able to take the time to experiment.

[T. O'Heir]

"...This is due to the length of time rifles have been chambered in 30-06..." No it isn't. Pressures are set by SAAMI specs. All American factory ammo is loaded to SAAMI specs.
IMR4895, IMR4320 and H4350 will give just over 3000fps at MAX loads with a 150 grain bullet. Mind you, most 150 grain bullets shoot better at about 2800fps. However, you won't get 3200fps with any factory ammo.
The 'soot' on the cases is perfectly normal.
"...shoots 3 MOA..." Your rifle should shoot better than that even with factory ammo. Trigger been done? All the screws tight? Your rifle doesn't like the ammo you've been using. Try some different ammo, other than the 'light magnum'. Try some 165 grain hunting ammo. The .30-06 loves that bullet weight. If you want serious target accuracy, use 168 grain match bullets with IMR4064 for distances out to 600 yards. A 175 grain match bullet with the same powder past 600. Matchkings are your friend for long range target shooting. However, under no circumstances should you hunt with them. They're not made for hunting.
"...What powder and load is Hornady using..." None of the manufacturers publish what powder or charge weight they use in any ammo. Reloaders can't get the powders they use anyway.

[Scorch]

Pressures are set by SAAMI specs. All American factory ammo is loaded to SAAMI specs.

I wish that were true. Commercial ammo is loaded to not exceed SAAMI spec. In the case of the 30-06, this could mean that the ammo is loaded with duplex loads, or very slow powder, or loaded to a lower velocity with standard powders, or on and on with an infinite variety of combinations, so long as it does not exceed SAAMI maximum pressure standards. Not all loads are maximum loads, not all loads are consistently at a given pressure. In fact, some factory ammo is disturbingly variable in accuracy and pressures.

The Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Industries (SAAMI) pressure specs are maximum pressures for firearms in good condition and originally chambered for a given caliber. Since not all firearms are either, ammo manufacturers allow for some margin of error.

[riddleofsteel]

Remember, no free lunch in ballistics.

With some exceptions increased speed usually means increased pressure. I had a Remington 700 in 30-06 I used to hot rod 150 grain Hornadys past 3000FPS in using a max+ load of IMR 4064. It worked for a while but in the end the throat erosion demons took that barrel. I ended up being unable to seat the bullet out far enough to get close to the lands.
It's not worth it. If you want more speed get a .300 Win MAG.

[smiljko]

Look at norma website-their URP powder is quite impressive
http://www.norma.cc/sortimentladd.as...ngfield&Lang=2

[Red_Eagle]

Have you actually chronoed the Hornady load or are you just going of what they published?