Best shotgun shell for self defense in an apartment. - Page 4

EAJ702 · July 31, 2009, 03:09 PM

The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth

Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls

INMY01TA · August 4, 2009, 06:42 PM

00 Buck. You'll most likely never need to use but in the event that I do I don't really care what happens to my walls I want the BG dead.

Bill DeShivs · August 4, 2009, 07:37 PM

I can't possibly understand how you people could possibly think that birdshot at very close range would not be devastatingly lethal, yet you think a .45 auto is a "ray gun". A one inch hole, 8 inches deep in someone's chest beats a .45 any day.
I am not particularly a supporter of birdshot for defense, but some comments here are ridiculous.

Kmar40 · August 4, 2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

I can't possibly understand how you people could possibly think that birdshot at very close range would not be devastatingly lethal,

Well from my law enforcement experience (and prior EMS/ER service also), I could possibly think that it isn't devasting because of the several people I've seen shot with it at point blank range who had only superficial wounds. All of these were at worst walking wounded after core hits (chest or head) with birdshot.

I've seen people killed with it too. However, I've seen way to many failures to ever consider it an effective round. And the gellatin testing and other approximations (box o truth water jugs) just happens to agree with my personal experience.

Use what YOU want. I guess you can always go for one of your Bill custom shivs when the birdshot fails.

darkgael · August 5, 2009, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Well from my law enforcement experience (and prior EMS/ER service also), I could possibly think that it isn't devasting because of the several people I've seen shot with it at point blank range who had only superficial wounds. All of these were at worst walking wounded after core hits (chest or head) with birdshot.

I don't doubt your experience. It makes me think. I am trying to wrap my mind around that idea - that any shotgun load at point blank range could produce only a superficial wound. I can't argue with what you have seen.
Pete

firespectrum · August 5, 2009, 10:48 AM

Even if birdshot only produces a superficial wound (not saying it does), who takes a 12 guage blast and goes, "Haha! It's merely a superficial wound!" If you end up shooting him, BG knows you have a shotgun, knows you're willing to use it, and is bleeding and in lots of pain. BG is probably going to vacate very quickly. If you forsee someone coming into your house solely intent on killing you, I'd go 00 buck, but most burglars/rapists will be dissuaded by getting shot with anything. They want what they want but they don't want any trouble. I think birdshot is more than enough trouble for most. Stopping the intruder is my paramount concern, followed by the safety of neighbors & family; killing the intruder is just a nice little plus.

Brian Pfleuger · August 5, 2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

I could possibly think that it isn't devasting because of the several people I've seen shot with it at point blank range who had only superficial wounds. All of these were at worst walking wounded after core hits (chest or head) with birdshot.

Were any of these people aggressors and did any of them continue their aggression after being shot? Could you possibly define "point blank"? I saw a kid on TV that was shot point blank in the head with 12ga birdshot and he was LITERALLY missing the entire quadrant of his head. Miraculously, he survived.

T.A.Sharps · August 5, 2009, 02:04 PM

It all boils down to how effective you want the load you shoot to be when your life is on the line.

If you were living next to my apartment, I would tell you carry a sling shot because anything you shoot is going to go through an apartment's walls. Birdshot or no.

Birdshot will wound a man, it will not put a man down.

Birdshot will just give the intruder the incentive to actually kill you. You will be instigating a "Fight or Flight" moment for the him. The desired outcome is if you scared or hurt him enough, he will stop what he is doing and run out, or hopefully he is weak enough that an ugly wound will make him give up.

If his reaction (not decision) in this second is to start shooting back, you have brought a birdgun to a gunfight, and he is packing a pistol shooting 9mm 40cal or 45, or maybe a revolver shooting 38 or .357. None of which chosen because of light penetration.

shortwave · August 5, 2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Birdshot will wound a man, it will not put a man down.

Quote:

I`m not particularly a supporter of birdshot for defense but some comments here are ridiculous.

Simply amazing

. I see what your saying Bill. I bet the loved ones of the many people killed in accidental shootings with birdshot over the years may tend to dissagree with some of these statements, not counting the number of BG`s thats six ft. under. I hope the novice shooter doesn`t believe those kind of comments.

Bill DeShivs · August 5, 2009, 08:03 PM

An ounce of lead, put 6 -12 inches into a man's chest, will most certainly "put a man down."
It won't do it at 40 feet, but at 10 feet it certainly will.

Kmar40 · August 6, 2009, 08:11 AM

Ignorance is bliss.

shortwave · August 6, 2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Ignorance is bliss.

Kmar, please explain your statement. If you`re referring to comments of either Bill Deshivs or myself, I`m failing to see that what you`re saying is different than us. Your statement:

Quote:

I`ve seen people killed with it too.

B. Deshivs statement:

Quote:

I am not particularly a supporter of birdshot for defense, but some of these comments here are ridiculous.

As you,neither of us are condoneing birdshot as a SD round but a flat statement "that birdshot WILL NOT put a man down" is insane and should`nt be made as there may be people here that have never owned a shotgun or have any knowledge of what various rounds are capable of. You didn`t make that statement(someone else did) but there should be NO misunderstanding that birdshot CAN be a lethal round. Again, I fail to see the ignorance.

Quote:

At say, 15 ft. a load of birdshot will nearly cut a man into

Now there`s a statement ridiculous to the other side of the spectrum.

inSight-NEO · August 6, 2009, 06:33 PM

My vote is for 00 Buck, but in the low recoil (9 shot) variant. Now, Im no ammunition afficianado so Im not sure how this compares to say, #1 or #4 Buckshot. Personally, I use the Federal brand (as of now the LE version) for HD and based on what Ive gleaned, the low recoil 00 Buckshot has a muzzle velocity of 1140 and therefore, seems almost at the "bottom of the list" in terms of muzzle velocity for 00 Buckshot.

Therefore Im wondering, given the "lower" muzzle velocity of the low recoil 00 Buck (vs. the usual 1250-1350+ or so of "standard" 00 Buck), if this could be considered an effective and somewhat "safer" round for those of us who prefer using 00 buckshot for HD (in an apartment type environment) vs. say, #1 or #4 Buckshot.

Dave McC · August 6, 2009, 08:27 PM

Closed, since some folks find it hard to play well with others.....

View Poll Results: what shotgun shell would you use if you lived in an apartment?
00 Buck	56	35.90%
#4 Buck	49	31.41%
Turkey Shot	14	8.97%
#4 bird shot	37	23.72%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

August 4, 2009, 07:37 PM	#78
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	I can't possibly understand how you people could possibly think that birdshot at very close range would not be devastatingly lethal, yet you think a .45 auto is a "ray gun". A one inch hole, 8 inches deep in someone's chest beats a .45 any day. I am not particularly a supporter of birdshot for defense, but some comments here are ridiculous. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

August 5, 2009, 02:04 PM	#83
T.A.Sharps Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2007 Posts: 675	It all boils down to how effective you want the load you shoot to be when your life is on the line. If you were living next to my apartment, I would tell you carry a sling shot because anything you shoot is going to go through an apartment's walls. Birdshot or no. Birdshot will wound a man, it will not put a man down. Birdshot will just give the intruder the incentive to actually kill you. You will be instigating a "Fight or Flight" moment for the him. The desired outcome is if you scared or hurt him enough, he will stop what he is doing and run out, or hopefully he is weak enough that an ugly wound will make him give up. If his reaction (not decision) in this second is to start shooting back, you have brought a birdgun to a gunfight, and he is packing a pistol shooting 9mm 40cal or 45, or maybe a revolver shooting 38 or .357. None of which chosen because of light penetration. __________________ " ...Said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it..." "Your reality, sir, is lies and bladerdash, and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever!"

August 5, 2009, 08:03 PM	#85
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	An ounce of lead, put 6 -12 inches into a man's chest, will most certainly "put a man down." It won't do it at 40 feet, but at 10 feet it certainly will. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

August 6, 2009, 06:33 PM	#88
inSight-NEO Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2008 Posts: 608	My vote is for 00 Buck, but in the low recoil (9 shot) variant. Now, Im no ammunition afficianado so Im not sure how this compares to say, #1 or #4 Buckshot. Personally, I use the Federal brand (as of now the LE version) for HD and based on what Ive gleaned, the low recoil 00 Buckshot has a muzzle velocity of 1140 and therefore, seems almost at the "bottom of the list" in terms of muzzle velocity for 00 Buckshot. Therefore Im wondering, given the "lower" muzzle velocity of the low recoil 00 Buck (vs. the usual 1250-1350+ or so of "standard" 00 Buck), if this could be considered an effective and somewhat "safer" round for those of us who prefer using 00 buckshot for HD (in an apartment type environment) vs. say, #1 or #4 Buckshot. __________________ Guns are similar, for instance, to automobiles; in the hands of the sane and responsible, they are generally harmless. In the hands of the insane, careless or malicious, they both become deadly. Blame the person, not the means....mechanical/inanimate objects have no mind of their own. Last edited by inSight-NEO; August 6, 2009 at 06:53 PM.

July 31, 2009, 03:09 PM	#76
EAJ702 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 448	The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls

August 4, 2009, 06:42 PM	#77
INMY01TA Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2008 Location: Marylandistan Posts: 262	00 Buck. You'll most likely never need to use but in the event that I do I don't really care what happens to my walls I want the BG dead.

August 5, 2009, 10:48 AM	#81
firespectrum Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Posts: 112	Even if birdshot only produces a superficial wound (not saying it does), who takes a 12 guage blast and goes, "Haha! It's merely a superficial wound!" If you end up shooting him, BG knows you have a shotgun, knows you're willing to use it, and is bleeding and in lots of pain. BG is probably going to vacate very quickly. If you forsee someone coming into your house solely intent on killing you, I'd go 00 buck, but most burglars/rapists will be dissuaded by getting shot with anything. They want what they want but they don't want any trouble. I think birdshot is more than enough trouble for most. Stopping the intruder is my paramount concern, followed by the safety of neighbors & family; killing the intruder is just a nice little plus.

August 6, 2009, 08:11 AM	#86
Kmar40 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 668	Ignorance is bliss.

August 6, 2009, 08:27 PM	#89
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Closed, since some folks find it hard to play well with others.....