Rules For Gun Safety - Page 2

Dannyl · February 13, 2010, 12:40 AM

Hi Vanya,
I used the gun shop scenario just as an example of being handed a firearm.
I have to say that in all the shops I have visited (and that's counting quite a few) in Namibia, Israel and South Africa I have never been served by a staff member who was not saftey conscious.

and as Pax says, even after you have checked and you know it is not loaded, all other rules still apply.

Brgds,
Danny

**Shane Tuttle** · February 13, 2010, 12:53 AM

I'm not understanding why the four simple rules could actually be wrong. Cooper removed the variables involved down to common sense. To this day, I never have placed anyone in danger while following them and haven't been confused when practicing them...

Lost Sheep · February 13, 2010, 02:15 AM

There are a few firearms with which I am not familiar enough to know how to open the action and check the chamber. Generally this is at a gun shop or a range and there is someone around I can ask to open the chamber for me and show me how it is done before I am willing to even pick it up.

Also, I generally open the action of any firearm I ever hand to anyone, and show them the empty chamber(s). I know that if I handed someone a gun and they had an unintended discharge (accidental, negligent, whatever term you want to use, for I know this is a point of contention), I would feel just as badly as if I had fired the round myself.

I consider the handing over of an open-action firearm as much a matter of courtesy as of safety, though safety, of course, carries much more weight.

Lost Sheep

Lost Sheep · February 13, 2010, 02:23 AM

My shooting buddy (who is from England) won't even handle a magazine (without the gun, mag empty or full) or open an ammo box at the range when the firing line is cold and gets miffed when others do.

I feel that is excessive, but I see his point. Also, that is the way he was trained in his career.

Lost Sheep

**Frank Ettin** · February 13, 2010, 02:49 AM

dmazur, there's no need to make this overly complicated. Re-read what pax wrote in post 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by pax, post 21, emphasis added

...And if part of the disassembly procedure involves putting your finger on the trigger, you follow Rule Two and do not lose track of your muzzle direction while you do it. You also follow Rule Three and do not place your finger on the trigger until -- following Rule Four -- you have deliberately selected a "target," that is, a deliberately chosen aimpoint which is an acceptable place for the bullet to land, and which will safely prevent the bullet from traveling any further.

What bullet? See Rule One...

It's really very straight forward, and there's nothing gained by over-thinking it.

pax · February 13, 2010, 10:12 AM

fiddletown,

Quite right!

It's even simpler than that. In one sentence: If you're going to pull the trigger, don't point the gun at yourself when you do. Doesn't matter why you're pulling the trigger, whether it's for dryfire or disassembly or some other reason. Just don't do it.

Nothing elaborate there. Just solid common sense.

pax

Pahoo · February 13, 2010, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Tuttle8 +1; I'm not understanding why the four simple rules could actually be wrong.

Four simple rules that even a Cave-Man can follow. .....

Be Safe !!!

RonC · February 13, 2010, 12:24 PM

I follow these rules and have taught my son to do so as well. Now, a question for you experienced folks:

At the outdoor range I frequent, I have to walk forward, toward the target, from the staging table. No problem there as my handgun is always pointed downrange.

When I walk back to the table, where should I point the gun? It is clumsy to walk backwards, pointing the gun downrange. Some club members point the gun at the ground and walk directly back to the table. Some point the gun directly upwards, toward the sky and walk to the table, worried that a negligent discharge into the ground could ricochet into someone. Either way, the finger is off the trigger. Personally, I eject the mag and lock the slide back before walking toward the table (or empty the cylinder of a revolver). Not everyone does that.

What do you recommend?

Thanks,
Ron

**Frank Ettin** · February 13, 2010, 01:27 PM

RonC,

I'm sure not familiar with that sort of range procedure, i.e., taking one's gun in hand down range to check or post targets. But if the drill as you describe it, I guess I'd vote for pointing the gun up. And I also think that everyone should be required to remove any magazine and open the action.

But how do you manage taping or hanging a target? That's always been a two hand operation for me.

SOP at the ranges I've shot at is to clear the gun and lock the action open upon the "cease fire" call. The gun is then placed on the bench pointed down range. All benched guns are then confirmed by the RO to be clear and locked open before anyone goes down range. During the cease fire, anyone not going down range must remain behind a safety line some 6 (+/-) feet in back of the benches. Approaching the benches or handling anything on the bench is prohibited during the cease fire, and compliance is monitored by an RO.

Alternatively, pistols could be required to be holstered in a suitable, strong side hip holster, which covers the trigger guard, and rifles could be required to be slung. That was the drill at hot ranges at which I've trained. The theory is that a holstered pistol or a slung rifle is not being handled and is in a safe condition.

RonC · February 13, 2010, 02:06 PM

In this outdoor range, there isn't a firing line to speak of. There are a series of bays. The bays for handguns are about 30 yds long and 15 to 25 yds wide with a mountainside behind the target area and large berms (maybe 8-10 ft high on the sides. There is a picnic table in each bay at 25 yds where people place their gun bags and ammo. If you want to shoot at 15 yds or 10 yds, you take your gun either in a holster or in hand and walk up to the 15 or 10 yd spot. Targets are put up separately with no guns at hand. The guns usually are on the table or in holsters when targets are mounted.

Also, usually one party or just an individual is in the bay at one time. The rifle bays are different in that they are 100 yds.

Ron

Pahoo · February 13, 2010, 02:28 PM

Whenever possible, it's; Up and Away

Last week I noticed that the corrogated sheet metal over the rifle benches, had two holes in it. Sad but isn't that a better place than in someone or something else? ...

There are times when we need to trust our better judgement. Once looked at a rifle that a sales person, behind the counter, showed me and he instructed me to point the muzzle behind the counter. I replied that he was there and he said that's okay.

I saw that the only thing overhead, was the ceiling. That's where I kept the muuzzle and he didn't say a word. Perhaps they care more about their lights than their help.

Be Safe !!!

dmazur · February 13, 2010, 07:55 PM

I don't believe I'm over-thinking anything...

I was taught initially (military) that you made sure the pistol was unloaded, then you went ahead with field-stripping for cleaning.

The Four Rules would indicate that muzzle discipline should be maintained while you verify unloaded status, and many manufacturer's manuals mention this as a wise precaution. (All guns are always loaded.)

However, some field-stripping procedures (1911 for example) require some manipulation near the muzzle, making muzzle discipline almost impossible. Disassembly seems to violate Rule 2.

This is the type of discussion I was hoping to see, not a debate as to whether the Four Rules are a good idea or not.

My point was, that it may not be as simple as we would like it to be, in all circumstances.

Be safe!

Dannyl · February 14, 2010, 12:55 AM

Hi Ron,
I can suggest 2 options:
1. make the gun safe and either holster or bag it before going to the target.
2. make the the gun safe, and carry it with the mag out / cylinder open, barrel down and in "reverse hold" ( the grip facing away from you)

Both options are 100% safe and if anyone sees you he can see that the fireamr is safe and you are holding it in a manner that makes it impossible for it to fire.

Anyhow, your way of doing it is perfectly safe.

Brgds,

Danny

Blue Steel · February 18, 2010, 11:31 AM

The purpose of the rule #1 is not to say that "technically" all guns are always loaded, this is an obvious fallacy that some people seem to be focusing on. The purpose of the rule is to impart to anyone who hears it, regardless of experience level, that firearms are dangerous and a great number of people have been injured or killed by "unloaded" guns. This rule is designed to ingrain in the subconscious the level of care that must be used when handling firearms, even those that are "unloaded".

One post discussed consensual training with firearms, where operators point unloaded firearms at each other. I would say that specialized training of this type, which should occur under strict supervision, is an exception to a rule that is intended to be a general rule for safe handling by all disciplines.

Another author indicated that is first rule is "Practice gun safety always." The next question from a novice shooter might very well be "How do I practice gun safety." That is the purpose of this short, easy-to-understand list.

If everyone followed just the second rule we would eliminate the vast majority of injuries and fatalities from negligent/accidental firearms discharges.

Uncle Ben · February 18, 2010, 01:57 PM

Well said Blue Steel. I agree

pax · February 21, 2010, 08:40 PM

Oh, and even if you've checked it -- don't point it at friends.

The whole idea that an "unloaded" gun becomes a toy or an inert object is flawed and dangerous. Treat it with respect.

pax

pax · February 22, 2010, 09:40 AM

This guy thought his firearm was unloaded. It wasn't.

pax

February 13, 2010, 12:53 AM	#27
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	I'm not understanding why the four simple rules could actually be wrong. Cooper removed the variables involved down to common sense. To this day, I never have placed anyone in danger while following them and haven't been confused when practicing them... __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

February 13, 2010, 02:15 AM	#28
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	With unfamiliar firearms There are a few firearms with which I am not familiar enough to know how to open the action and check the chamber. Generally this is at a gun shop or a range and there is someone around I can ask to open the chamber for me and show me how it is done before I am willing to even pick it up. Also, I generally open the action of any firearm I ever hand to anyone, and show them the empty chamber(s). I know that if I handed someone a gun and they had an unintended discharge (accidental, negligent, whatever term you want to use, for I know this is a point of contention), I would feel just as badly as if I had fired the round myself. I consider the handing over of an open-action firearm as much a matter of courtesy as of safety, though safety, of course, carries much more weight. Lost Sheep

February 13, 2010, 02:23 AM	#29
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Where do you draw the line? My shooting buddy (who is from England) won't even handle a magazine (without the gun, mag empty or full) or open an ammo box at the range when the firing line is cold and gets miffed when others do. I feel that is excessive, but I see his point. Also, that is the way he was trained in his career. Lost Sheep

February 13, 2010, 10:12 AM	#31
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	fiddletown, Quite right! It's even simpler than that. In one sentence: If you're going to pull the trigger, don't point the gun at yourself when you do. Doesn't matter why you're pulling the trigger, whether it's for dryfire or disassembly or some other reason. Just don't do it. Nothing elaborate there. Just solid common sense. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat Last edited by pax; February 13, 2010 at 10:19 AM.

February 13, 2010, 01:27 PM	#34
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	RonC, I'm sure not familiar with that sort of range procedure, i.e., taking one's gun in hand down range to check or post targets. But if the drill as you describe it, I guess I'd vote for pointing the gun up. And I also think that everyone should be required to remove any magazine and open the action. But how do you manage taping or hanging a target? That's always been a two hand operation for me. SOP at the ranges I've shot at is to clear the gun and lock the action open upon the "cease fire" call. The gun is then placed on the bench pointed down range. All benched guns are then confirmed by the RO to be clear and locked open before anyone goes down range. During the cease fire, anyone not going down range must remain behind a safety line some 6 (+/-) feet in back of the benches. Approaching the benches or handling anything on the bench is prohibited during the cease fire, and compliance is monitored by an RO. Alternatively, pistols could be required to be holstered in a suitable, strong side hip holster, which covers the trigger guard, and rifles could be required to be slung. That was the drill at hot ranges at which I've trained. The theory is that a holstered pistol or a slung rifle is not being handled and is in a safe condition. Last edited by Frank Ettin; February 13, 2010 at 02:42 PM.

February 13, 2010, 12:40 AM	#26
Dannyl Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Cape Town - South Africa Posts: 627	Hi Vanya, I used the gun shop scenario just as an example of being handed a firearm. I have to say that in all the shops I have visited (and that's counting quite a few) in Namibia, Israel and South Africa I have never been served by a staff member who was not saftey conscious. and as Pax says, even after you have checked and you know it is not loaded, all other rules still apply. Brgds, Danny

February 13, 2010, 12:24 PM	#33
RonC Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 226	I follow these rules and have taught my son to do so as well. Now, a question for you experienced folks: At the outdoor range I frequent, I have to walk forward, toward the target, from the staging table. No problem there as my handgun is always pointed downrange. When I walk back to the table, where should I point the gun? It is clumsy to walk backwards, pointing the gun downrange. Some club members point the gun at the ground and walk directly back to the table. Some point the gun directly upwards, toward the sky and walk to the table, worried that a negligent discharge into the ground could ricochet into someone. Either way, the finger is off the trigger. Personally, I eject the mag and lock the slide back before walking toward the table (or empty the cylinder of a revolver). Not everyone does that. What do you recommend? Thanks, Ron

February 13, 2010, 02:06 PM	#35
RonC Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 226	In this outdoor range, there isn't a firing line to speak of. There are a series of bays. The bays for handguns are about 30 yds long and 15 to 25 yds wide with a mountainside behind the target area and large berms (maybe 8-10 ft high on the sides. There is a picnic table in each bay at 25 yds where people place their gun bags and ammo. If you want to shoot at 15 yds or 10 yds, you take your gun either in a holster or in hand and walk up to the 15 or 10 yd spot. Targets are put up separately with no guns at hand. The guns usually are on the table or in holsters when targets are mounted. Also, usually one party or just an individual is in the bay at one time. The rifle bays are different in that they are 100 yds. Ron

February 13, 2010, 02:28 PM	#36
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Whenever possible, it's; Up and Away Last week I noticed that the corrogated sheet metal over the rifle benches, had two holes in it. Sad but isn't that a better place than in someone or something else? ... There are times when we need to trust our better judgement. Once looked at a rifle that a sales person, behind the counter, showed me and he instructed me to point the muzzle behind the counter. I replied that he was there and he said that's okay. I saw that the only thing overhead, was the ceiling. That's where I kept the muuzzle and he didn't say a word. Perhaps they care more about their lights than their help. Be Safe !!!

February 13, 2010, 07:55 PM	#37
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	I don't believe I'm over-thinking anything... I was taught initially (military) that you made sure the pistol was unloaded, then you went ahead with field-stripping for cleaning. The Four Rules would indicate that muzzle discipline should be maintained while you verify unloaded status, and many manufacturer's manuals mention this as a wise precaution. (All guns are always loaded.) However, some field-stripping procedures (1911 for example) require some manipulation near the muzzle, making muzzle discipline almost impossible. Disassembly seems to violate Rule 2. This is the type of discussion I was hoping to see, not a debate as to whether the Four Rules are a good idea or not. My point was, that it may not be as simple as we would like it to be, in all circumstances. Be safe! __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

February 14, 2010, 12:55 AM	#38
Dannyl Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Cape Town - South Africa Posts: 627	For Ron C Hi Ron, I can suggest 2 options: 1. make the gun safe and either holster or bag it before going to the target. 2. make the the gun safe, and carry it with the mag out / cylinder open, barrel down and in "reverse hold" ( the grip facing away from you) Both options are 100% safe and if anyone sees you he can see that the fireamr is safe and you are holding it in a manner that makes it impossible for it to fire. Anyhow, your way of doing it is perfectly safe. Brgds, Danny Last edited by Dannyl; February 14, 2010 at 01:01 AM.

February 18, 2010, 11:31 AM	#39
Blue Steel Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 185	The purpose of the rule #1 is not to say that "technically" all guns are always loaded, this is an obvious fallacy that some people seem to be focusing on. The purpose of the rule is to impart to anyone who hears it, regardless of experience level, that firearms are dangerous and a great number of people have been injured or killed by "unloaded" guns. This rule is designed to ingrain in the subconscious the level of care that must be used when handling firearms, even those that are "unloaded". One post discussed consensual training with firearms, where operators point unloaded firearms at each other. I would say that specialized training of this type, which should occur under strict supervision, is an exception to a rule that is intended to be a general rule for safe handling by all disciplines. Another author indicated that is first rule is "Practice gun safety always." The next question from a novice shooter might very well be "How do I practice gun safety." That is the purpose of this short, easy-to-understand list. If everyone followed just the second rule we would eliminate the vast majority of injuries and fatalities from negligent/accidental firearms discharges. __________________ "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

February 18, 2010, 01:57 PM	#40
Uncle Ben Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 400	Well said Blue Steel. I agree

February 21, 2010, 08:40 PM	#41
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Oh, and even if you've checked it -- don't point it at friends. The whole idea that an "unloaded" gun becomes a toy or an inert object is flawed and dangerous. Treat it with respect. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

February 22, 2010, 09:40 AM	#42
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	This guy thought his firearm was unloaded. It wasn't. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat