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August 4, 2009, 07:03 PM | #26 |
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Just last year, an elderly guy and his wife had a guy beating on his door and trying to break it in. He was drunk and taking chantix for smoking addiction at the time. It turns out he was at the wrong door. The elderly guy saw the guy on his porch through the peep hole and saw that he was a pretty big guy. He was about 6'5". The elderly guy underestimated his height and tried to shoot a warning shot above his head through the door. It turns out the dead guy was a musician with Edie Briquell and the New Bohemians. The elderly guy was not charged with anything. He was on the phone with 911 when he fired the shot.
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August 5, 2009, 01:39 AM | #27 |
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No shoot.
If you cannot see your target, do NOT shoot. If you do not KNOW that you are in mortal danger, and you cannot see your target and IDENTIFY it as hostile, do not shoot. Don't be in such a rush to kill. Hold your fire and identify your target. |
August 5, 2009, 05:40 AM | #28 |
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Come on folks, let's not be overly simplistic. I think EVERYONE here can easily distinguish between someone "banging on the door" and someone breaking down the door/trying to illegally gain entrance.
First of all, I think this is one situation that definitely calls for a verbal warning. Letting someone (or several someones) illegally gain entrance to your home while you (and your family) are in it severely degrades your tactical situation. A door is often a much better "stopper" than a handgun; if someone is obviously trying to defeat it after you've made it known to them in no uncertain terms that they should stop trying to break into your home, then what happens next is up to them. As pointed out, there's a difference between being afraid and reasonably being in fear of serious injury or death. Someone banging on the door might scare a person, but someone breaking down the door is not just scary. A person trying to break into an occupied residence is a genuine threat to the life & safety of everyone in the house. That is ESPECIALLY true if they continue trying to get in after being warned away. That is precisely why laws exist that exonerate people who shoot through doors to prevent criminals from illegally gaining entrance to an occupied residence. This is no different from any other deadly force situation in the home. If you reasonably believe that your life is in immediate danger then you are justified in using deadly force to defend it. The fact that you can't see the person trying to illegally enter your home doesn't change that. It's no more illegal than shooting a threatening intruder in the dark. Saying it's not advisable or legal because you can't see your target through the door makes about as much sense as saying you shouldn't shoot a threatening intruder in your bedroom if it's dark and you can't see him. The key is the highlighted portion of the previous paragraph with an emphasis on the word "reasonably". I'm not familiar with the deadly force laws of EVERY state, but I feel pretty safe in saying that any state with a Castle Doctrine (and even many that don't) will have deadly force laws that allow shooting a person for trying to illegally gain entry to an occupied residence.
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August 5, 2009, 07:04 AM | #29 | ||
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Personally, I would not shoot at anyone or any animal that I cannot see unless for some reason I had no alternative. |
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August 5, 2009, 08:20 AM | #30 | ||
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August 5, 2009, 08:22 AM | #31 | |
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John and OM...Please re-read OP...I agree that one would likely be justified in shooting through a closed door at a reasonably perceived threat. Is it advisable (both tactically and safety-wise) is the question!
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We've read of several situations on these boards alone of innocent family members raising the alarm and nearly being shot BUT FOR the positive identification by the gun-owner prior to pulling the trigger. Such positive identification is impossible when shooting through a door. I'd prefer to let the door do its job. If it fails, I'll have ample opportunity to fire on the intruder. Besides, If I plan to pop him through the door anyway, why bother going behind the closed door in the first place? To be clear I am not advocating any absolutes here. Just that, in general, shooting through a closed door is not safe and provides no real tactical advantage. IMHO. |
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August 5, 2009, 08:29 AM | #32 | |
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RE: WWF-style home-defense ...My point was simply to illustrate that with the door closed, you cannot be sure of your target or what is behind it. Yes, optimally my wife and I willexecute our safety plan perfectly andthe BG will have fled or be dropped on the stairway coming upstairs.............Let me know when you hear of a home invasion that happens according to plan! While I would be unlikely to take the WWF route, I may be lining up a shot from a different angle and, since my wife is shooting blind, she could hit me....Or hit one of the police officers we called to help us...or nothing at all! Again...I understand that there are no absolutes for these hypothetical scenarios, I am simply advocating that it is generally a bad idea to shoot through objects at BGs..... |
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August 5, 2009, 09:36 AM | #33 | ||
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I don't recall CHL classes in Texas covering tactics as a general rule, so I don't know why you think they would necessarily cover tactics in this situation. Besides, the question was fairly straight forward and the instructor gave a straight forward answer. The person making the query wasn't asking about safety or tactics, but the legal aspect. Whether or not it is unsafe or bad tactics is a matter of opinion and that is going to vary with situation.
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And for those people who claim that if you state it was a warning shot and you end up killing the person that you will go to jail for murder, that is exactly what happened in the case above and the shooter did NOT go to jail. Quote:
Do you have any idea how much longer CHL classes would last if CHL instructors answer all possible ramifications of simple legal questions? Of course, if you think that is how it should be handled, then become a CHL instructor. I believe you are too late for 2009, but you can enroll for 2010.
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August 5, 2009, 09:45 AM | #34 | |
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August 5, 2009, 09:57 AM | #35 |
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Why would you tell the police that the shot that killed the person was only intended to be a warning shot? Either way I very much agree with JohnSKA, There is a difference between someone even pounding on your door and someone trying to force their way through it. I think anyone who questions their doors integrity needs to go spend a few bucks and reinforce it.
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August 5, 2009, 10:09 AM | #36 | |
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Since there's no statute of limitations, he is not immune from charges until he has been tried and acquitted or until he dies. Back to the topic, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would ever fire a warning shot. Had an innocent person been injured, that "elderly guy" could have lost everything. |
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August 5, 2009, 10:36 AM | #37 |
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Assuming that the threat outside the home's exterior door was not shooting through the door and that the door was not damaged by the threat:
A competent prosecutor could make a persuasive argument to the jury at trial that the defendant who shot through a door was not shooting in self-defense. The prosecutor could argue that the threat was not imminent as the door was a solid barrier that was never breached and the shooter shot before the threat was imminent. He could argue that the shooter should have held fire until the door was breached and the shooter could identify the threat. This argument might be greatly weakened if you add to the facts by saying the threat broke down the front/back door, broke down the bedroom door and was breaking down the closet down where the shooter had retreated. So many what ifs . . . . . .
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August 5, 2009, 10:57 AM | #38 | |
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And if you decide to shoot through any door, what, exactly, are you aiming at? You're just going to blaze away and hope you hit the potential intruder? You're responsible for every bullet you fire. If you fire through a door, especially an exterior door, whatever the legalities are if you actually hit the (presumptive) BG, you don't know "what's behind your target." In the event that you miss (not unlikely), you're now pretty much spraying the neighborhood and anyone in it. I'd prefer to avoid the potential legal (and moral) consequences of doing that.
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August 5, 2009, 11:03 AM | #39 |
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I think it would be exceedingly dangerous and a nearly unimaginable set of circumstances to justify shooting at a completely unidentified target on the other side of an OUTER door.
Shooting through an inner door is a whole different animal.
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August 5, 2009, 11:26 AM | #40 |
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+1 Peetza
LE friends have always told me that BG should fall inside the house if you have to shoot.
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August 5, 2009, 12:09 PM | #41 | |
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But it has many of the same problems regarding missing what you're (not) aiming at, and where rounds go after that... As Hogdogs likes to point out (credit where it's due, here ), the best way to avoid overpenetration and the risks that go with it is to hit your target, and shooting blind isn't the best way to do that.
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August 5, 2009, 12:25 PM | #42 | |
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In Texas, Louisiana, or Arkansas it does not matter where they fall as long as you feared for your life and therefore you responded in an effort to stop the threat with lethal force.
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August 5, 2009, 12:48 PM | #43 | |
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I would have no qualms about shooting through the door if I had already met all the prerequisites and had reason to believe that my safety would be significantly imperiled if I waited for the door to give way.
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August 5, 2009, 01:07 PM | #44 | |
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August 5, 2009, 01:48 PM | #45 |
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If he is outside he is no threat. After he gains entry he becomes a threat.
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August 5, 2009, 01:48 PM | #46 | |
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That would be a good one for someone with some good CAD software to simulate. Just trying to visualize it, it seems to me it would really be a hit-or-miss situation. Pardon the pun. Oops, one more question: after shooting, how would one know whether the threat had been hit and wounded or neutralized, or had retreated to wait for your egress? |
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August 5, 2009, 01:56 PM | #47 | |
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After the shooting, I don't care what he does. I'm waiting for the police. My wife would be on the phone with 911 at the time of the shooting and they would be apprised as to the current situation.
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August 5, 2009, 02:00 PM | #48 | |||||||
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DNS...
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Wow...chill out dude. I really suggest you back off your high horse and enter a civil discussion with the rest of us. Quote:
SO, my friend, you have become worked up over a disagreement which barely exists! Relax! Quote:
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August 5, 2009, 02:15 PM | #49 | |
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Notwithstanding the wording, consider the case of a perp outside an occupied domicile trying to set it on fire. Would you shoot? I would. That's specifically called out in the law in some states and not in others. Does anyone have reason to believe it would be unlawful to do so in any state not requiring retreat from the domicile? Pardon the slight veer, but this is relevant to the above comment, I think. Would it be lawful to shoot through the door? Through the screen, maybe! |
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August 5, 2009, 02:21 PM | #50 | |
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