Load for rem 700p in .223

RERICK · March 14, 2006, 12:23 PM

I have been trying to develop an accurate load for my Rem 700p in 223.I have not had a whole lot of success as of yet.The best I have done was around 1 or 2 inch groups with a 69 sierra hpbt match 24 grains of varget with a federal match primer.realizing every gun shoots differant I was curious if anyone has come up with a good combo that has shot well in the model that I have.Like I said,Rem 700p,26 in. barrel,1 in 9 twist,in .223.Any help would be appreciated.

Leftoverdj · March 14, 2006, 01:20 PM

One in 9" strikes me as a bit slow for 69 grain bullets. Try something around 60 grains.

Master Blaster · March 14, 2006, 02:46 PM

Try a sierra 55 grain HPBT game king, I load mine with either 26 grains of 748 or 25 grains of varget, you may have to experiment up or down a grain to find one your gun likes.

This load shoots very well out of my 16" 1/9 ars.

RERICK · March 14, 2006, 04:14 PM

Master Blaster,What primer do you use with those loads?

**Unclenick** · March 14, 2006, 07:22 PM

Chris Long's Optimum Barrel Time (OBT) calculator suggests a 26 inch barrel will have good nodes at barrel times of 1.106 ms and 1.191 ms. Your 24 grain Varget load calculates in QuickLOAD to a barrel time of 1.126 ms with a 28.8 grain water capacity case (QL default) and 1.214 ms with a 31.0 grain water capacity case (my Winchester cases). These bracket the sweet spot. Chris's theory appears seldom off by more than a couple of percent in predicting sweet spot barrel time (it is based on the speed of sound in barrel steel, and so is not subject to caliber or contour differences), so whether your load is too fast or too slow depends on what cases you are using? With the Winchester cases the predictions are for 22.4 grains of Varget and 24.4 grains of Varget to land on sweet spots. THESE ARE ONLY THEORETICAL AND MAY BE TOO HOT IN YOUR GUN, but at least they give you some idea what the span may be; that you may have to work through a couple of grains of charge difference to find one.

LeftoverDJ's comment about the twist rate is correct. The RSI Ballistic Lab software has that bullet falling below a stability factor of 1 at the speed of sound, and at 3000 fps it is 1.39 You normally want to see 1.5 to 2.0 at the muzzle, and maybe as much as 3.0. You won't keyhole with anything over 1.0, but you are straining the limits of recommended practice. The shorter flat base spire points will shoot more accurately for you in that barrel. Try the 53 grain flatbase Matchking. Get a 7.5 inch twist if you want to shoot the heavier .224's. The barrel you've got is geared toward the light varmint bullets.

Nick

jclaude · March 14, 2006, 09:24 PM

According to Brownells, 1 in 12 is adequate twist for projectiles up to 63 grains. 1 in 9 is recommended for bullet weights greater than 63 grains. Not saying who's right of wrong, just that there's a significant difference of opinion.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Gun...x?p=0&t=1&i=61

My 16" barrelled AR does acceptably well with 62 grains with a 1 in 10 twist.

MrGee · March 15, 2006, 01:07 AM

i am shooting a 223pss my 1st loads shot 3/8 -1/2" had used LC cases loaded them with 25.0 Varget .. GM210m Feds an both Hornady Match 68gr an 69gr Sierra's varget likes to be pushed alittle maybe step up your powder from 24.0 to 24.3, 24.6 , 24.9 an watch for pressure signs your 1-9 twist like mine should handle 70gr bullet... how new is your barrel .. lighten the trigger .. shoot off a good steady rest .. watch the wind
.224 CF
8" For bullets heavier than 70 gr.

9" For bullets up to 70 gr.

12" For bullets up to 63 gr.

14" For bullets up to 55 gr.

15"* For bullets up to 55 gr. driven 4,100 fps or more

16"* For bullets up to 55 gr. driven 4,300 fps or more

270Win · March 15, 2006, 02:20 AM

Those twist figures look about right. I know I've managed to get 62-grain to stabilize, at least at 100 yards, in my 1-in-12 twist VLS. 69 grains went all over the place.

Master Blaster · March 15, 2006, 08:42 AM

Hi Rerick,

I use either the CCI standard small rifle primers, or the Federal Gold medal match primers, and it seems to make no difference. I load these in Lake city cases which I get from Scharchs http://www.scharch.com/. I sort the cases by headstamp (thats year for LC).

I seat them to the length specified in my Lyman 48 reloading manual, and to the specs in the speer or Hodgden manuals (I use three data sources and recommend to all to do the same).

You might also try some of the Winchester Varmint ammo which uses 45 grain hollow point bullets, its availible in a 40 round value pack, Natchez shooters supply carries it for around $11 a box, and lots of folks at my club who dont reload swear that its the best factory ammo for accuracy out of a bolt gun.

**Unclenick** · March 15, 2006, 01:10 PM

The rate of twist thing garners disagreements in part because it changes not only with bullet weight and length, but with muzzle velocity. The combination of these two determines how many RPM the bullet is spinning. The RPM is what actually determines stability, and there is a different number of RPM required for different bullets under different conditions. The trick is to pick a satisfactory minumum stability factor (S number) for the muzzle velocity you actually have. Preferably one with some margin to it.

The RSI Shooting lab generates a list that includes minimum twist to achieve a stability factor of above 1.5. True instability (keyholing) doesn't occur until the S number is below 1, but things can get shakey before that. Shakey means some guns will do fine and others won't, depending what other destabilizing factors are present. Hence the safety margin.

You can read Harold Vaughn's book, Rifle Accuracy Facts, to see how different S values affect the bullet flight path. He has charts showing the path traced by the nose of the bullet on its way to the target. This is way over-simplifying, but basically it leaves the gun and starts describing a circle. At a stability factor of S=1, this circle stays the same size throughout the flight. Below S=1 it gets bigger as the bullet heads down range. Above S=1 the circle gets smaller as the bullet heads down range.

For the 69 grain SMK from a .223, Sierra's tech said a 10" twist will stabilize it. This is S=1.13 at 3000 fps. The RSI software says to use at least an 8.7" twist at this velocity (S=1.5). I like the 7.5", because I've had good results with it and the 77 grain SMK as well as the 53 grain SMK. I use the former at 300 and 600 yards, and the latter at 200 yards in service rifle matches, so I know it is good over that range of weights. I've never tried a very light bullet in it. I will be trying some 80 grain Berger VLDs in it at 600 yards this season.

Nick

Leftoverdj · March 15, 2006, 03:12 PM

I'm a pragmatist. Theory is all very well, but when a rifle won't shoot a bullet, you try something else.

willsnipe · March 16, 2006, 04:04 PM

+1 on that!

Mine loves 50 gr. v-max at about 3350 fps. I'm using surplus powder, so data on loads won't do you much good.

speedy8084 · March 16, 2006, 09:26 PM

Try the new fussion bullet....The jacket is electroplated to the lead core...This gives The bullet a more perfectly ballanced jacket in flight....Since you have a slower twist rate a better ballanced bullet is the ticket....I noticed in myreload manual that 24 grain is the minimum load....try somthing in the middle or at least 25 grains as a starting point..

629 shooter · March 17, 2006, 11:36 PM

"I have been trying to develop an accurate load for my Rem 700p in 223.I have not had a whole lot of success as of yet.The best I have done was around 1 or 2 inch groups with a 69 sierra hpbt match 24 grains of varget"

Do you know starting and max loads are for the 69 Sierra MatchKing with Varget for the .223. I have a 700 LTR which also has the 1 in 9" twist but a 20" fluted barrel. I have some rounds loaded with 748 but also have some Varget I want to try out.

MrGee · March 18, 2006, 02:56 AM

follow-up test of the last time .. [ 700 pss .223 ]
was at the range thrus. tested more on the Varget found no pressure yet
25.7 Varget w/ 205m B.R. Fed primer, L C case, 69gr match Sierra .. i moved to the 200yrd target an had a 5 shot group inside a twenty-five cent piece with 1 of the five just outside of it. Lymans 48 Edition gives an accuracy load as 26.0+ gr of Varget as a max / compressed for the 69gr bullet

March 14, 2006, 12:23 PM	#1
RERICK Junior member Join Date: July 9, 2005 Posts: 369	Load for rem 700p in .223 I have been trying to develop an accurate load for my Rem 700p in 223.I have not had a whole lot of success as of yet.The best I have done was around 1 or 2 inch groups with a 69 sierra hpbt match 24 grains of varget with a federal match primer.realizing every gun shoots differant I was curious if anyone has come up with a good combo that has shot well in the model that I have.Like I said,Rem 700p,26 in. barrel,1 in 9 twist,in .223.Any help would be appreciated.

March 14, 2006, 07:22 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Chris Long's Optimum Barrel Time (OBT) calculator suggests a 26 inch barrel will have good nodes at barrel times of 1.106 ms and 1.191 ms. Your 24 grain Varget load calculates in QuickLOAD to a barrel time of 1.126 ms with a 28.8 grain water capacity case (QL default) and 1.214 ms with a 31.0 grain water capacity case (my Winchester cases). These bracket the sweet spot. Chris's theory appears seldom off by more than a couple of percent in predicting sweet spot barrel time (it is based on the speed of sound in barrel steel, and so is not subject to caliber or contour differences), so whether your load is too fast or too slow depends on what cases you are using? With the Winchester cases the predictions are for 22.4 grains of Varget and 24.4 grains of Varget to land on sweet spots. THESE ARE ONLY THEORETICAL AND MAY BE TOO HOT IN YOUR GUN, but at least they give you some idea what the span may be; that you may have to work through a couple of grains of charge difference to find one. LeftoverDJ's comment about the twist rate is correct. The RSI Ballistic Lab software has that bullet falling below a stability factor of 1 at the speed of sound, and at 3000 fps it is 1.39 You normally want to see 1.5 to 2.0 at the muzzle, and maybe as much as 3.0. You won't keyhole with anything over 1.0, but you are straining the limits of recommended practice. The shorter flat base spire points will shoot more accurately for you in that barrel. Try the 53 grain flatbase Matchking. Get a 7.5 inch twist if you want to shoot the heavier .224's. The barrel you've got is geared toward the light varmint bullets. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 14, 2006, 09:24 PM	#6
jclaude Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Coastal North Carolina Posts: 157	Twist rate for .223 According to Brownells, 1 in 12 is adequate twist for projectiles up to 63 grains. 1 in 9 is recommended for bullet weights greater than 63 grains. Not saying who's right of wrong, just that there's a significant difference of opinion. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Gun...x?p=0&t=1&i=61 My 16" barrelled AR does acceptably well with 62 grains with a 1 in 10 twist.

March 15, 2006, 01:07 AM	#7
MrGee Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 260	Rerick i am shooting a 223pss my 1st loads shot 3/8 -1/2" had used LC cases loaded them with 25.0 Varget .. GM210m Feds an both Hornady Match 68gr an 69gr Sierra's varget likes to be pushed alittle maybe step up your powder from 24.0 to 24.3, 24.6 , 24.9 an watch for pressure signs your 1-9 twist like mine should handle 70gr bullet... how new is your barrel .. lighten the trigger .. shoot off a good steady rest .. watch the wind .224 CF 8" For bullets heavier than 70 gr. 9" For bullets up to 70 gr. 12" For bullets up to 63 gr. 14" For bullets up to 55 gr. 15"* For bullets up to 55 gr. driven 4,100 fps or more 16"* For bullets up to 55 gr. driven 4,300 fps or more

March 15, 2006, 01:10 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The rate of twist thing garners disagreements in part because it changes not only with bullet weight and length, but with muzzle velocity. The combination of these two determines how many RPM the bullet is spinning. The RPM is what actually determines stability, and there is a different number of RPM required for different bullets under different conditions. The trick is to pick a satisfactory minumum stability factor (S number) for the muzzle velocity you actually have. Preferably one with some margin to it. The RSI Shooting lab generates a list that includes minimum twist to achieve a stability factor of above 1.5. True instability (keyholing) doesn't occur until the S number is below 1, but things can get shakey before that. Shakey means some guns will do fine and others won't, depending what other destabilizing factors are present. Hence the safety margin. You can read Harold Vaughn's book, Rifle Accuracy Facts, to see how different S values affect the bullet flight path. He has charts showing the path traced by the nose of the bullet on its way to the target. This is way over-simplifying, but basically it leaves the gun and starts describing a circle. At a stability factor of S=1, this circle stays the same size throughout the flight. Below S=1 it gets bigger as the bullet heads down range. Above S=1 the circle gets smaller as the bullet heads down range. For the 69 grain SMK from a .223, Sierra's tech said a 10" twist will stabilize it. This is S=1.13 at 3000 fps. The RSI software says to use at least an 8.7" twist at this velocity (S=1.5). I like the 7.5", because I've had good results with it and the 77 grain SMK as well as the 53 grain SMK. I use the former at 300 and 600 yards, and the latter at 200 yards in service rifle matches, so I know it is good over that range of weights. I've never tried a very light bullet in it. I will be trying some 80 grain Berger VLDs in it at 600 yards this season. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 14, 2006, 01:20 PM	#2
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	One in 9" strikes me as a bit slow for 69 grain bullets. Try something around 60 grains.

March 14, 2006, 02:46 PM	#3
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Try a sierra 55 grain HPBT game king, I load mine with either 26 grains of 748 or 25 grains of varget, you may have to experiment up or down a grain to find one your gun likes. This load shoots very well out of my 16" 1/9 ars.

March 14, 2006, 04:14 PM	#4
RERICK Junior member Join Date: July 9, 2005 Posts: 369	Master Blaster,What primer do you use with those loads?

March 15, 2006, 02:20 AM	#8
270Win Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: Damascus, Maryland Posts: 921	Those twist figures look about right. I know I've managed to get 62-grain to stabilize, at least at 100 yards, in my 1-in-12 twist VLS. 69 grains went all over the place.

March 15, 2006, 08:42 AM	#9
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Hi Rerick, I use either the CCI standard small rifle primers, or the Federal Gold medal match primers, and it seems to make no difference. I load these in Lake city cases which I get from Scharchs http://www.scharch.com/. I sort the cases by headstamp (thats year for LC). I seat them to the length specified in my Lyman 48 reloading manual, and to the specs in the speer or Hodgden manuals (I use three data sources and recommend to all to do the same). You might also try some of the Winchester Varmint ammo which uses 45 grain hollow point bullets, its availible in a 40 round value pack, Natchez shooters supply carries it for around $11 a box, and lots of folks at my club who dont reload swear that its the best factory ammo for accuracy out of a bolt gun.

March 15, 2006, 03:12 PM	#11
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	I'm a pragmatist. Theory is all very well, but when a rifle won't shoot a bullet, you try something else.

March 16, 2006, 04:04 PM	#12
willsnipe Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Posts: 24	+1 on that! Mine loves 50 gr. v-max at about 3350 fps. I'm using surplus powder, so data on loads won't do you much good.

March 16, 2006, 09:26 PM	#13
speedy8084 Junior Member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 12	Ballance.... Try the new fussion bullet....The jacket is electroplated to the lead core...This gives The bullet a more perfectly ballanced jacket in flight....Since you have a slower twist rate a better ballanced bullet is the ticket....I noticed in myreload manual that 24 grain is the minimum load....try somthing in the middle or at least 25 grains as a starting point..

March 17, 2006, 11:36 PM	#14
629 shooter Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2002 Location: IN , USA Posts: 967	"I have been trying to develop an accurate load for my Rem 700p in 223.I have not had a whole lot of success as of yet.The best I have done was around 1 or 2 inch groups with a 69 sierra hpbt match 24 grains of varget" Do you know starting and max loads are for the 69 Sierra MatchKing with Varget for the .223. I have a 700 LTR which also has the 1 in 9" twist but a 20" fluted barrel. I have some rounds loaded with 748 but also have some Varget I want to try out. __________________ "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." Last edited by 629 shooter; March 18, 2006 at 09:17 AM.

March 18, 2006, 02:56 AM	#15
MrGee Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 260	rerick follow-up test of the last time .. [ 700 pss .223 ] was at the range thrus. tested more on the Varget found no pressure yet 25.7 Varget w/ 205m B.R. Fed primer, L C case, 69gr match Sierra .. i moved to the 200yrd target an had a 5 shot group inside a twenty-five cent piece with 1 of the five just outside of it. Lymans 48 Edition gives an accuracy load as 26.0+ gr of Varget as a max / compressed for the 69gr bullet